Home > Uncategorized > Why economic models do not explain

Why economic models do not explain

from Lars Syll

Thomas Piketty explains the meaning of economic models, and why we can't  rely on them — QuartzIn physics, we have theories and centuries of experience and experiments that show how gravity makes bodies move. In economics, we know there is nothing equivalent. Mainstream economists necessarily have to load their theories and models with sets of auxiliary structural assumptions to get any results at all in their models.

So why then do mainstream economists keep on pursuing this modelling project?

Mainstream ‘as if’ models are based on the logic of idealization and a set of tight axiomatic and ‘structural’ assumptions from which consistent and precise inferences are made. The beauty of this procedure is, of course, that if the assumptions are true, the conclusions necessarily follow. But it is a poor guide for real-world systems. As Hans Albert has it on this ‘style of thought’:

A theory is scientifically relevant first of all because of its possible explanatory power, its performance, which is coupled with its informational content … Clearly, it is possible to interpret the ‘presuppositions’ of a theoretical system … not as hypotheses, but simply as limitations to the area of application of the system in question. Since a relationship to reality is usually ensured by the language used in economic statements, in this case the impression is generated that a content-laden statement about reality is being made, although the system is fully immunized and thus without content. In my view that is often a source of self-deception in pure economic thought …

The way axioms and theorems are formulated in mainstream economics often leaves their specification without almost any restrictions whatsoever, safely making every imaginable evidence compatible with the all-embracing ‘theory’ — and theory without informational content never risks being empirically tested and found falsified. Used in mainstream ‘thought experimental’ activities, it may, of course, ​be very ‘handy’, but totally void of any empirical value.

Some economic methodologists have lately been arguing that economic models may well be considered ‘minimal models’ that portray ‘credible worlds’ without having to care about things like similarity, isomorphism, simplified ‘representationality’ or resemblance to the real world. These models are said to resemble ‘realistic novels’ that portray ‘possible worlds’. And sure: economists constructing and working with that kind of models learn things about what might happen in those ‘possible worlds’. But is that really the stuff real science is made of? I think not. As long as one doesn’t come up with credible export warrants to real-world target systems and show how those models — often building on idealizations with known to be false assumptions — enhance our understanding or explanations about the real world, well, then they are just nothing more than just novels.  Showing that something is possible in a ‘possible world’ doesn’t give us a justified license to infer that it therefore also is possible in the real world. ‘The Great Gatsby’ is a wonderful novel, but if you truly want to learn about what is going on in the world of finance, I would recommend rather reading Minsky or Keynes and directly confront real-world finance.

Different models have different cognitive goals. Constructing models that aim for explanatory insights may not optimize the models for making (quantitative) predictions or deliver some kind of ‘understanding’ of what’s going on in the intended target system. All modelling in science have tradeoffs. There simply is no ‘best’ model. For one purpose in one context model A is ‘best’, for other purposes and contexts model B may be deemed ‘best’. Depending on the level of generality, abstraction, and depth, we come up with different models. But even so, I would argue that if we are looking for what yours truly has called ‘adequate explanations’ (Ekonomisk teori och metod, Studentlitteratur, 2005) it is not enough to just come up with ‘minimal’ or ‘credible world’ models.

The assumptions and descriptions we use in our modelling have to be true — or at least ‘harmlessly’ false — and give a sufficiently detailed characterization of the mechanisms and forces at work. Models in mainstream economics do nothing of the kind.

Coming up with models that show how things may possibly be explained is not what we are looking for. It is not enough. We want to have models that build on assumptions that are not in conflict with known facts and that show how things actually are to be explained. Our aspirations have to be more far-reaching than just constructing coherent and ‘credible’ models about ‘possible worlds’. We want to understand and explain ‘difference-making’ in the real world and not just in some made-up fantasy world. No matter how many mechanisms or coherent relations you represent in your model, you still have to show that these mechanisms and relations are at work and exist in society if we are to do real science. Science has to be something more than just more or less realistic ‘story-telling’ or ‘explanatory fictionalism’. You have to provide decisive empirical evidence that what you can infer in your model also helps us to uncover what actually goes on in the real world. It is not enough to present your students with epistemically informative insights about logically possible but non-existent general equilibrium models. You also, and more importantly, have to have a world-linking argumentation and show how those models explain or teach us something about real-world economies. If you fail to support your models in that way, why should we care about them? And if you do not inform us about what are the real-world intended target systems of your modelling, how are we going to be able to value or test them? Without giving that kind of information it is impossible for us to check if the ‘possible world’ models you come up with actually hold also for the one world in which we live — the real world.

  1. Yoshinori Shiozawa
    December 15, 2020 at 3:09 pm

    Just before I read Hans Albert’s paper Model Platonism: Neoclassical economic
    thought in critical light
    linked by Lars Syll, I was reading Friedrich von Hayek’s 1967 paper: The Theory of Complex Phenomena: A Precocious Play on the
    Epistemology of Complexity
    , which was originally written in 1964. See my comment on Asad Zaman’s article Complexity Economics.

    Comparing two papers, I felt that Albert’s paper is rather old fashioned, because his main reference in philosophy of science was Karl Popper, whereas Hayek presented a clearly critical view in Popper’s falsificationalism based on the understanding that the economy is a complex system and economics should be a science of complex phenomena.

    Albert’s paper was also disappointing in the point that he does not seem to have learned much from German methodological controversy. It seemed he was still not very far from Max Weber.

  2. Ikonoclast
    December 15, 2020 at 10:37 pm

    I must admit that I oscillate between regarding conventional economics as a tar-baby and a morass. Abandon all hope ye who enter into it to theorize and debate! Poor young Ole Peters, he of recent ergodicity fame. He has aimed a blow at the tar-baby. He has entered the black swamp to fight the tar-baby. He will be stuck and glooped up in the interminable, undifferentiated, sticky, ideological matrix that is conventional economics and its lack of a coherent ontology.

    Modern conventional economics is still at the stage of being a theology of wealth, a medieval schoolman’s prescription for logic and an alchemist’s vision of science. Personally, I call BS on the whole discipline unless it can develop an objective ontology of economic objects and produce empirically validated results at the global scale. Empirical is as empirical does. If conventional economics destroys the real liveable world (climate change, sixth mass extinction etc.) with its prescriptions, as it is currently doing, then it cannot be empirically justified. That is really the end of the debate right there.

    Of course, we cannot entirely blame conventional economics. Geostrategic competition and human nature, themselves, are certainly playing their roles in the biosphere destruction process. However, conventional economics has prescribed itself as the answer to these and all issues. The overweening claim by Economics, or its boosters,is that it can manage everything, that it is the prescription for everything, This is actually the central problem.

    Conventional economics prescribes endless growth in a finite system, the biosphere. It prescribes that dynamic, unstable endless growth be modeled and managed by equilibrium theory. Right there we see the ontological inconsistency. The refusal to limit or tailor economic parameters and models to the known empirical limits and behaviors encapsulated in the fundamental laws thus far discovered by science; the laws of thermodynamics for example. That economics ignores ergodicity as understood by physics is as nothing compared to its ignoring of thermodynamics, climate physics and ecological parameters.

    Economics (conventional economics) is the incorrect decision system for managing scarce resources. This is empirically proven by the extant outcomes. Instead of managing scarce resources (for example the benign benefits of the Holocene climate, the free gifts of natural cycles and bioservices) in a conserving manner, it has ransacked the earth system so that it now stands on the brink of total collapse. I have posed this question before. How is it “efficient” to destroy the earth resources and systems we depend on for life? There can be no remaining pretense of allocative efficiency when confronted these outcomes. Conventional economics, via capitalism, does not achieve efficient use of scarce and limited resources. It achieves long term destruction of scarce and limited resources for the short term wealth of an elite.

    Surely, economics stands in need of a complete instauration or renovation, at the very least. Indeed, I would not even recommend renovation. I would recommend tearing down the entire house of conventional economics and starting again. This is what will happen in any case. It will be torn down for us by natural forces. The comprehensive collapse of capitalist civilization will enforce either human extinction or the most extensive and radical reappraisal of economics possible; a radical reappraisal so emergently novel that we can no more fully imagine it yet than feudalists could have imagined the rise of capitalism.

    However, my guess is that the next economic system on earth will be catabolic scavenging combined with hunter gathering. The hunting and gathering will be very poor in many localities. The earth in previous hunter-gathering times was a veritable cornucopia compared to what it will be this time around. So, all these arguments about (conventional) economics are somewhat beside the point. The entire grounds of global reality on which conventional economics stands will be so radically altered that conventional economics will inevitably collapse and disappear with the system it built and which built it, operating in that reflexive, feed-back manner of systems where substructure and superstructure continually influence each other.

    If a philosophical and wisdom tradition remains (be it religious or secular) among the human remnants post-capitalism, then capitalism, as both the prescribed excrescence and described subject matter of conventional economics, will be so excoriated by the tribe that if any man or woman dare utter a sentence in favor of it and all its non-cooperative selfishness, then he or she will be summarily thrown over a high cliff. That at least is my dystopian prediction of our future.

    • Yoshinori Shiozawa
      December 16, 2020 at 1:37 am

      Iconoclast,
      interesting information on Ole Peterson. Would you like to give more information about him? What happened with him?

      • Ikonoclast
        December 16, 2020 at 3:50 am

        Ole Peters is still around and making some headlines.

        https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-11/everything-we-ve-learned-about-modern-economic-theory-is-wrong

        Of course, the tar-baby of conventional economics is around too and still doing what tar-babies do. What happens when you hit an intellectual tar-baby with a telling (logical, mathematical or empirical) blow? It absorbs the blow and sticks you to itself. The more you attempt new blows (arguments) the more you become entangled in the false matrix of false ontological assumptions consisting of its axiomatic assumptions and a prioris.

        One has to establish an accepted ontology first (as a theory of basic objective existents within and for the discipline and how they connect and interact in fundamental law-bound fashions) before arguing any finer points. If you cannot agree upon a base ontology for a discipline then all subsequent debate is pointless. As John Stuart Mill said essentially (I cannot find the direct quote just now) if you argue against a set of beliefs, all your logic, your mathematics and empirical evidence will be worthless. Your opponent will actually further entrench himself in his beliefs.

        A great part of the ontology of conventional economics consists of articles of faith. These faith claims have little or no claim to be an objective and empirically testable ontology. Personally, I reached the point where I will probably depart sites and debates which accept conventional economic ontology in any form. I await the real world refutation when capitalism collapses under the contradictions between its endless growth myth (to name but one and the finite reality of this world.

      • Yoshinori Shiozawa
        December 16, 2020 at 2:22 pm

        Iconoclast,
        thank you for the information. I have to write a comment on Ole Peters. Your information is very useful.

        As for neoclassical economics as the tar-baby, I am not so enthusiastic about attacking or blowing neoclassical economics. As you put it, it may be a tar-baby. But, serious and deep criticism of neoclassical economics is still necessary, because it is necessary for the reconstruction of economics.

        I have a long list of terms that I refuse to use: demand and supply function; equilibrium (of demand and supply function and the framework in general); production function (for a firm and for an economy as a whole); marginal utility, product, efficiency, cost, and revenue; elasticity of anything, etc. It is not easy to talk about economics without these terms, because these pseudo-concepts have pervaded ubiquitously in economics. However, there is still a pass way to an alternative.

        Ole Peters claims that economics must restart from three century ago. I am not so radical as Peters, because I am only claiming that we should return to David Ricardo and restart from him. Even if I say this, it does not mean that everything Ricardo wrote is right. On the contrary, I believe there is only one theory from which we could restart. It is his cost-of-production theory of value. (See my paper The revival of classical theory of values.) Other doctrines such as wage fund theory, quantity theory of money, and of course his denial of general glut are all false..

        As regards to the price theory, Smith and Ricardo are different and it is difficult to find clear value theorist of cost-of-production except Ricardo even in the time of classical political economy. In the 20th century, I can find Piero Sraffa. But they could not replace mainstream economics by their theory, because they lacked a half of the total theory, i.e. a good theory of quantity adjustment.

        My book with Morioka and Taniguchi of 2019 Microfoundations of Evolutionary Economics is based on the modern version of classical theory of value (à la Ricardo). But it contains a new theory that neither Ricardo nor Sraffa could succeed. We have found how the complex relations of quantity adjustment process between firms works. The final demand of enormous number of products can fluctuate randomly with small variations. If the certain average of this fluctuation demand changes “slowly”, the network of input-output relations can follow the change of the final demand. (See for the definition of “slow change” Section 2.7.4, p. 129.)

        With our results, it is now possible to argue how production system as a whole can adjust itself (by the behavior of individual firms) to the changing flow of the final demand. Thus, as Marc Lavoie confirms in his book review of our book, Post Keynesian economics has got a sure microfoundations for the principle of effective demand. There is nor more need to argue aggregate supply and demand functions. Each firm sells as much as purchase offer comes at the previously fixed price. This is for them the maximization of profit.

        In our opinion, our book shows also why Keynesian revolution failed in around 1970’s. It did because Keynesians (fundamentalists and Post Keynesians) cannot produce the theory that provides a firm theoretical framework that can support Keynes’s idea of effective demand. Keynes’s General Theory is written by the language and concepts of Marshall. Keynes himself talked about his “struggle of escape from habitual modes of thought and expression”. But in the final account, he did not succeed in his struggle, and he remained still inside of the strong gravitation field that attract everything. Economists who came after Keynes should have provide a new framework but unfortunately they could not, partly because those economists respected too much what Keynes left. He was not as holy as Marx for Marxists, but many economists after Keynes want to find a “right interpretation” in what was left by Keynes.

  3. gerald holtham
    December 15, 2020 at 11:46 pm

    Lars says ” You have to provide decisive empirical evidence that what you can infer in your model also helps us to uncover what actually goes on in the real world.” I agree. The usefulness of a model in a given situation has to be demonstrated by showing its implications are consistent with data or evidence pertaining to that or a similar situation.
    Given how stubborn people can be I fear “decisive” will be in the eye of the beholder. Still, that poses the question: how can we demonstrate that the model fits or is realistic? What in Lars’ opinion constitutes a satisfactory test?
    That is the mystery I can never resolve from his writing.

  4. Yoshinori Shiozawa
    December 16, 2020 at 1:25 am

    I agree with Gerald. I agree with all what Lars Syll have written:

    We want to have models that build on assumptions that are not in conflict with known facts and that show how things actually are to be explained. Our aspirations have to be more far-reaching than just constructing coherent and ‘credible’ models about ‘possible worlds’. We want to understand and explain ‘difference-making’ in the real world and not just in some made-up fantasy world.

    No matter how many mechanisms or coherent relations you represent in your model, you still have to show that these mechanisms and relations are at work and exist in society if we are to do real science. Science has to be something more than just more or less realistic ‘story-telling’ or ‘explanatory fictionalism’. You have to provide decisive empirical evidence that what you can infer in your model also helps us to uncover what actually goes on in the real world. It is not enough to present your students with epistemically informative insights about logically possible but non-existent general equilibrium models. You also, and more importantly, have to have a world-linking argumentation and show how those models explain or teach us something about real-world economies. (Lars Syll on December 14, 2020; paragraph separation by me.)

    What Lars has demanded is quite right. My question is why he only demand for you and why does he not consider the same problem for us. We all know that we cannot arrive at an ideal stage at once. So, we are trying with various ways to proceed a bit knowing that all results are still insufficient. If Lars is a metholodogist or philosopher of social science, why does he try to indicate his own plan or prospectus that may help researchers (mainly heterodox economists) to advance toward reconstruction of economics?

    N.B. It would be useless to try to persuade mainstream economists to convert. The most promising would be to give young economists useful advice so that they can be a good economists who may revolutionize economics. The second best way would be to give some hints for already established heterodox economists. What I want Lars is to consider these best and the second best ways.

  5. Ken Zimmerman
    December 20, 2020 at 2:54 pm

    The primary problematic of the social studies of scientific knowledge (SSK) is that of science-as-knowledge, and its defining mark is its insistence that scientific knowledge is constitutively social. SSK’s perspective on knowledge is, however, typically underwritten by a particular vision of scientific practice that goes broadly as follows (from David Bloor, 1976, chapter 8). Since the central problematic of SSK is that of knowledge, the first move is to characterize the technical culture of science as a single conceptual network, along the lines suggested by the philosopher of science Mary Hesse (1980). Concepts at differing levels of abstraction within the net are said to be linked to one another by generalizations of varying degrees of certainty, and to the natural world by the piling up of instances under the headings of various observable terms. When scientific culture is specified in this way, an image of scientific practice follows: practice is the creative extension of the conceptual net to fit new circumstances. And here SSK, following Ludwig Wittgenstein (1953) and Thomas Kuhn (1962), insists on two points. First, that the extension of the net is accomplished through a process of modeling or analogy: the production of new scientific knowledge entails seeing new situations as being relevantly like old ones. And second, that modeling is an open-ended process: the extension of scientific culture, understood still as a single conceptual net, can plausibly proceed in an indefinite number of different directions; nothing within the net fixes its future development.

    This rather simple and near to how scientists see their own work view is overturned, however by the problem of closure. Why does not scientific culture continually disintegrate as scientific actors develop it in the myriad different ways that are conceivable in principle? How is closure- the achievement of consensus on extensions of culture-to be understood? Here comes the move that justifies the S for ‘social’ in SSK. SSK emphasizes the instrumental aspect of scientific knowledge and the agency of scientific actors. knowledge is for use, not simply for contemplation, and actors have their own interests that instruments can serve well or ill. Introduction of the distinctively sociological concept of interest serves to solve the problem of closure in two ways. On the one hand, actors are seen as tentatively seeking to extend culture in ways that might serve their interests rather than in ways that might not. And on the other hand, interests serve as standards against which the products of such extensions, new conceptual nets, can be assessed. A good extension of the net is one that serves the interest of the relevant scientific community best. Here, then, is the basic SSK account of practice, and with this in hand we can return to the starting point-the problematic of science-as-knowledge-and articulate a position. Scientific knowledge must be seen, not as the transparent representation of nature or society, but rather as knowledge relative to a particular culture, with this relativity specified through a sociological concept of interest.

    Centrally at issue in this perspective is the constructivist insight that doing science is real work and that real work requires resources for its accomplishment. Here, ‘culture’ denotes the field of resources that scientists draw upon in their work, and ‘practice” refers to the acts of making (and unmaking) that they perform in that field. ‘Practice’ thus has a temporal aspect that ‘culture’ lacks, and the two terms should not be understood as synonyms for one another. A hammer, nails, and some planks of wood are not the same as the act of building a dog kennel-though a completed dog kennel might well function as a resource for future practice (training a dog, say). Demonstrating this sense of ‘practice’ and ‘culture’ is the ‘work’ of historians and social scientists and even economists once they escape their cultural reclusiveness.

    The question which must be dealt with next is how to reconcile this version of science with the traditional vision of science still quite commonly held. Science as true knowledge of how the world is. On this view, science is not just robust; it is as solid as a rock, given by the world itself. Importantly, it is entirely other to its producers and users. We humans do not have any choice in the matter: the acceleration due to gravity just is 32 feet per second squared. The other stock image of science is the inverse of this. This is the idea of science as a ‘mere social construction’— put together by human beings to suit their interests or to fit in with their social structure or what have you. Here science appears, not as rock-solid, but as extremely soggy, as if any form of knowledge can be projected onto an indifferent and unresisting world. As Barry Barnes (1994) remarks, the world does not care what we say about it, so we can say whatever we like. On this view, the otherness of science vanishes. All the responsibility for specific knowledge claims rests on its human producers, and none on the world itself. The tension set up by these two mirror-images of science creates the need for a concept like robustness. It is difficult to put all the weight on the world in accounting for scientific beliefs. Empirical studies seem to point relentlessly to the conclusion that science really is a social construction. The only question that is left is whether it is merely a social construction (Pickering 1990). Articulating robustness is, then, a way of trying to create a sense in which the ‘mere’ disappears, of trying to get at the idea that the world really can take some of the credit for scientific beliefs, even while acknowledging that they are socially constructed. If you want to read more about this effort check Andrew Pickering’s ‘The Robustness of Science and The Dance of Agency,’ 2011.

    • Yoshinori Shiozawa
      December 21, 2020 at 5:38 am

      Thank you, Ken, for the account of the SSK. You used the term “problematic”. It must stand for the main concern of the SSK. But, I feel some problems in the above argument.

      Science is a socially constructed product. It is relatively robust, It is useful. These characterizations may be useful to adjust to a more realistic one the traditional vision of science. I do not object to all these. My question is this: Can these characterizations be able to differentiate Science (modern natural sciences) from religion and occultism (such as astrology and alchemy)?

      Religions and various kinds of occultism are surely (1) a socially constructed product, (2) robust in the sense that believers do not change their mind faced at what seems to be absurd for outsiders, and (3) useful. There are still many people who believe fortune telling of various types because they are useful in the sense they help to make important decision. There are still prime ministers who consult their soothsayers.

      What makes Science different from religion and occultism? It would be necessary, I believe, to examine the content and its logical structure of Science. There is something that social studies of Science (studies on how scientists works and studies on how science is believed and used by people) cannot clarify.

      • Ken Zimmerman
        December 22, 2020 at 2:05 pm

        Yoshinori, you go right to the heart of the matter. I see it this way. The universe, physical matter or its behavior are not logical or even mathematical till people claim they are and set about ‘proving’ that it is so. People invented logic and mathematics, as well as science to explain what they observed. For example, when two or more physical events or entities seemed to move along together people invented the concept of correlation and later the theories of statistics to ‘explain’ these movements. Similarly, when one event or entity seemed to always precede the same other event or entity, people invented the notion of causation, and later the concept, theories, philosophy, and later sciences and mathematics of causation. You are correct that while this was going on other humans explained these events and entities in terms of the supernatural realms such as religion. And since they were supernatural there really was nothing to observe in our everyday world to ‘show’ the supernatural. While scientists rejected the supernatural to explain events and entities in our daily lives. Two cultures with different prejudices and interests. How, if at all can they be reconciled? Seems the answer is sometimes yes; other times no. After all there are scientists who are intensely religious. And religious ‘believers’ who are working scientists.

        So, the deciding factor here is culture – beliefs, prejudices, and interests. These are the framework for peoples’ lives. Scientific cultures are different from non-scientific cultures. Not a source of controversy in societies dominated by one or the other of these cultures. Often a source of great controversy, even conflicts in societies including both cultures. Your view of science is an example of the mix of the scientific and supernatural cultures. There is something in science integral to what it is that is not scientific. That a scientific study of science cannot explain, or it seems even recognize.

        Economics in my view shares this same predicament. After all, magic has been involved in the discipline of economics ever since Adam Smith uttered the famous words about an ‘invisible hand.’ But economics has three other difficulties. First, since economists’ object of study invent their own cultures and explanations there of, economists tend to infrequently re-examine and compare their concepts and explanations of say, markets with those of the people who create their own markets. Often the divergence between these concepts and explanations (theories) can become large and steer economists off in wrong directions. Second, some economists have of late frequently attempted to reverse the research procedure. That is, economists attempt to convince non-economists to change the markets, for example they have built to resemble the markets of economists’ theories more closely. When this happens for an economics culture that is hegemonic within the discipline, the problem for the wider society is often exceedingly difficult to remedy.

      • Yoshinori Shiozawa
        December 23, 2020 at 3:11 pm

        Ken, I have read your post on December 22, 2020 at 2:05 pm two times carefully, but I did not come to understand what you want to say. Perhaps we are talking different language. I am not trying to reconcile science(s) and religion or occultism. I am asking you how to differentiate them. Is it possible to do by your “culture” theory?

      • Ken Zimmerman
        December 24, 2020 at 3:59 pm

        Yoshinori, the anthropology, sociology, and history of sciences and religions has a history of more than 500 years. In the case of history, the study of the two goes back a thousand years or more.

        The historiography of religion is how historians have studied religion in terms of themes, sources, and conflicting ideas. Historians typically focus on one aspect or topic in the overall history of religions in terms of geographical area or of theological tradition.

        Historians for centuries focused on the theological developments of their own religious heritage. Social scientists in the 19th century took a strong interest in ‘primitive’ and comparative religion. In the 20th century, the field focused mostly on theology and church organization and development. Since the 1970s the social history approach to religious behavior and belief has become important.

        Considering this historiography, religion revolves around such concepts as mystical, paranormal, faith, belief, transcendence, universal, salvation, reform, etc. Different religions are based on different combinations of these. Consider this view of religions based on the writings of British historian Arnold Toynbee. Commonly, a religion is regarded as a set of beliefs and practices, usually involving acknowledgment of a divine or higher being or power, by which people order the conduct of their lives both practically and in a moral sense.

        As in all of anthropology religion is studied in relation to other social institutions, and the comparison of religious beliefs and practices across cultures. As to a definition, anthropological study of religion concentrates on religious life via the study of everyday practices. Anthropologists thus recognize that religious life is a thoroughly social practice, and yet identifiable as a transformative and sometimes mysterious subject of investigation. However, anthropological studies do not focus on the transcendental or messianic claims of religions.

        As with religions, anthropologists have studied scientific practices and practitioners ethnographically, and have traced the effects of scientific knowledge in other spheres of human activity and their effects on science. Alongside other scholars in ‘science and technology studies,’ anthropologists have raised questions such as: is scientific knowledge ‘socially constructed’? Does the ‘culture’ of scientists matter? What is objectivity? Is science a distinct kind of activity or domain? Are scientists in the business of describing the world, or transforming it? And is science ‘western’? In a number of these cases, anthropologists’ answers have stood out. For example, in contrast to religions, science is noted by intellectualism, a preference for formal logic and measurable results, and focus on practical activity encompassing the methodical study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

      • Yoshinori Shiozawa
        December 25, 2020 at 1:54 am

        Again you are reducing Science (modern natural sciences) to a form of culture. You can do it because Science is a social product, but I am not asking such a thing. You should reflect what you cannot do with your theory, although it must be very hard to do because we think within the theory we have.

        Let me repeat my question again: Can your culturalistic approaches distinguish Science from religions and occultism? You have not replied to the question at all. This question cannot be replied by telling a history (or anthropology and sociology) of science studies.

        As a form of culture, you can argue various aspects of Science. You can speak of a long history of cultural observations, but it does not understand what the Science is, because you cannot depict a specific structure that made Science science. You can explain Science as a socially constructed product and understand it as such. Enumerating various differences between Science and religion (and occultism) ends always by revealing relative differences of tendencies. Such efforts does not characterize Science. For me, it reveals the limit of your “culture” theory but you do not even recognize the problem. There is something missing from your theory.

        Probably it is because you do not understand modern physics, even the classical mechanics. What you observe is human behavior of scientists, but the truth that Science has discovered is different from human behavior. It is discovered as a social product, but its truth (or the contents) of this product is not produced by Science. It is discovered and not invented. It existed before we discovered it. This is, it seems to me, what Roy Bhaskar (in Chapter 1 of his book A Realist Theory of Science) insisted and I feel he was right.

      • Ken Zimmerman
        December 25, 2020 at 3:01 pm

        Yoshinori, you misunderstand or I did not make myself clear. Science is not a form of culture. Science is culture. In answer to your question, “Can your culturalistic approaches distinguish Science from religions and occultism?” I reply, is it possible to distinguish completely science from politics or literature? I say not. All have a common origin, culture. And the history and contents of cultures vary from time and place. So, culture presents itself differently in the history of regions and peoples. That means religion varies, science varies, art varies, etc. with the culture which is its home. For example, western science is not Chinese science, and Chinese science is not Islamic science. But often for purposes of categorizing and study these ‘sciences’ are lumped together. Obviously, religions are the same.

        Your presentation of science as special in human life, as beyond or outside human history and culture, however, is consistent with my position. Yours is a cultural position that extends back to at least the time of Pythagoras. You write that the truth science has ‘discovered’ is different from human behavior. It may be discovered through a social process, but this process does not produce the ‘truth’ of science. This truth has always existed. Before humans discovered it. You and Roy Bhaskar agree. Written like a Pythagorean cultist. Or a Eugenics cultist. Or a Copernican cultist. One of the features that makes science interesting to me is it is never truthful. It is always just one step away from collapsing. That is the source of the power of science.

      • Meta Capitalism
        December 25, 2020 at 2:59 am

        According to Tambiah (1990) anthropologists propose that “a person can in a certain context behave mystically, and then switch in another context to a practical empirical everyday frame of mind.” …. This legacy poses two problems of immediate concern for anthropology: how do we get beyond the artificial dichotomy that separates Western and non-Western forms of knowledge, simultaneously discrediting and romanticizing the latter; and how are logical/empirical and mystical/magical aspects of thought related, in all traditions? Perhaps we have begun to see that the distance separating the scientist and the shaman is not so great as was once imagined…. In other words, it appears the structures of reason in myth and magic are not fundamentally different from those of science. (Ken Zimmerman, 11/8/2019, RWER, Conflating Magic, Shamanism, and Science)
        .
        The scientific state of mind is a major marvel in its own right. Sometimes it slips up, either in the interest of preserving an unfit paradigm or because it has fallen asleep. These lapses are not as nefarious as betrayals of science that are motivated by greed or pursuit of power, but nevertheless they are dangerous, perhaps the more so because they do not necessarily signal their dishonesty with obviously ugly immorality. The enemy of truth is untruth, whatever its motivation. Even high-minded “scientific” untruth always exacts costs, and often they are large and ramified beyond all preliminary calculation. (Jacobs, Jane. Dark Age Ahead . Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition 902.)
        .
        What you observe is human behavior of scientists, but the truth that Science has discovered is different from human behavior. It is discovered as a social product, but its truth (or the contents) of this product is not produced by Science. It is discovered and not invented. It existed before we discovered it. (Shiozawa, RWER, 12/25/2020)

        .

      • Ken Zimmerman
        December 25, 2020 at 3:07 pm

        Meta Capitalism. Do you have a preference?

        For myself, I still accept Tambiah’s insight. Humans have shown themselves capable of creating and living through completely opposing cultural frameworks. In fact, often humans exist within frameworks not wholly consistent with one another. Sort of like being a Christian executioner. When this becomes extreme, humans often apply some term such as ‘mental disease’ to conceptualize the situation. As pointed out by Jacobs.

        If the sticking point is truth, we but need to keep in mind that any notions of truth we put forward or frame our lives are created by humans and through human performances.

      • Meta Capitalism
        January 26, 2021 at 9:13 am

        Truth is relative buy not irrelevant. It mattes. That which is consistent across reference frames is real.

      • Ken Zimmerman
        January 26, 2021 at 12:03 pm

        Which frame do we use, or you use to figure out which of the truths are the same across the frames?

      • Meta Capitalism
        December 26, 2020 at 12:56 am

        The object of study of a ‘social’ scientist is the same as the object of study of a ‘physical’ scientist. They just use them for different purposes. ~ Ken

        .

        Concepts like understanding and meaning are usually associated with a particular view of the Social Sciences. Social life produces and reproduces symbolic meaning. Social scientists need to acquire an understanding of the inherent symbolic meaning in social life. They do this, it is said, by adopting the viewpoint of a passive participant observer. In this view, the role of the social scientist is seen as distinctly different from that of the natural scientist. The object of study of the social scientist is society, the network of social interactions. Society does not exist outside the bracket of social interactions. The social sciences deal with the pre-interpreted world of the social participants. The social scientist interprets a social world, which already carries symbolic meaning. The symbolic meaning of the social world is produced and reproduced by the social actors. The study of the social world by social scientists is a matter of human subjects studying other human subjects. It is a matter of symbolic dimensions meeting other symbolic dimensions, a subject-subject relation. (Weinert 2004, 75)

        The object of study of the natural scientist is Nature, the organic or inorganic material world. In this objective sense Nature is not a human product. But, in a symbolic sense, ‘Nature’ is a creation of human understanding. In their interaction with the material world, humans conceptualise Nature in an attempt to understand its functioning. Models, theories and laws are the result. They reflect in symbolic form what successive epochs understood by ‘Nature’. The concept of ‘Nature’ belongs to the category of fundamental notions with which humans represent the natural world. Humans also use fundamental concepts to explain how they, as humans, manage to comprehend the world around them. Do [sic] to this, humans employ such fundamental concepts as determinism, indeterminism and causation, time and space, mass and energy, motion and rest. (Weinert 2004: 75-76)

        Thanks Ken. I think Weinert (2004) succinctly reveals where we differ in our understanding of science and its objects of study. You seem to not recognize that there exists a difference between the scientific study of the physical world vs. the living biological and social world. Yet, that difference is very much a part of the field of science and recognized by scientists. As Weinert notes, the physical world is a “pre-given natural world, not the symbolic, pre-interpreted world of the social scientist (Weinert 2004: 76).”
        .
        That which one holds of supreme value is expressed most often on one’s passionately held worldview. One’s worldview totalizes reality is the lens through which all else is filtered. And that which one holds to be of supreme value is one’s religion or religiously held philosophy. You elevate “culture” into a religion in my view that is as fundamentalist as any religiously held worldview that totalizes everything and anything despite evidence to the contrary. It is like wearing horse blinders in my view. I don’t call what you do science because it isn’t; I call it a religious philosophy that totalizes reality for you.
        .
        In my view the acid test of any science, philosophy, or religion is the ability to discern the difference between animate and inanimate realities and the ability to recognize mind in the universe. And the acid test for any religious philosophy — which is what you are pontificating here on this blog; your religious worldview — consists in whether or not it distinguishes between the realities of the material and the non-material (intellectual and spiritual) worlds while at the same moment recognizing their unification in intellectual striving and in social serving. I have no doubt you passionately want to serve humanity and see it do good and not evil.
        .
        Science is merely the yardstick by which humans measure the material universe. Indeed, we filter that reality through mind and mind is embedded in culture. And yet, science crosses cultures and shares certain traits that make science different than philosophy or religion. Yet, as Weinert makes clear, science and philosophy are forever entwinned in a dialectical relationship. Are these differences reducible to some single “scientific method” plain and simple? No, of course not, for science is a human endeavour subject to all the constraints and limitations of what it means to be human. Yet, humans, in their umwelt posses the creativity to invent language and culture. And within that language and culture to invent the language of mathematics which is the fundamental yardstick by which we measure the material world and poke and prod it to reveal its pre-given secrets. When Hideki Yukawa used the world-wide scientific culture (i.e., mathematics and theoretical physics) to propose the meson theory of nuclear forces he was using the methods of science to discover something about the physical universe. There are certain character traits of science that make it different from religion or philosophy. While no scientist can do science without philosophy for everyone holds philosophical presuppositions regardless of whether they are aware of them or not, science can be done without religion. I would even argue that it must be done without religion because religion and science ask and answer very different questions. There are limits to science just as there are limits to philosophy and religion. These limits are revealed most tellingly in things like scientism and creationism (both of which have erroneous philosophies).
        .
        Shiozawa’s question is a legitimate one, but I doubt your religious philosophy could ever adequately answer it for him. While the question is not so easily answered as can be seen in philosophy of science 101 course, neither is it completely a mystery. There are some general approaches that differentiate science from religion and the two of them from philosophy.

        Yukawa meson theory of nuclear forces proposed in 1935. (Brush 1988: 377) ….

        In 1935 Hideki Yukawa published a theory that attributed the strong nuclear force to exchange of a particle. This was clearly intended as a modification of Heisenberg’s 1932 exchange theory, following up Heisenberg’s suspicion that the particle exchanged is not really an electron but a particle with no spin obeying Bose statistics. The nuclear forces have a very short range (about 10[sup]-15 meter, the size of the nucleus) implied that the particle should have a mass equal to about 200 times that of the electron. (Brush 1988: 380)

        Yukawa’s prediction became known to Western physicists in 1937, about the same time as the discovery of the muon by C.D. Anderson and S.H. Neddermeyer. It was believed for several years that the new particle was in fact the one postulated by Yukawa (informally known as the “yukon”) and as a result Yukawa’s theory attracted much attention. (Brush 1988: 380)

        Yukawa had originally proposed the meson-exchange force only for the proton-neutron interaction and had assumed that the proton-proton force was nothing more than Coulomb repulsion. However, proton-proton scattering experiments by M.A. Tuve, L.R. Hafstad, and N. Heydenberg in 1936 indicated that there is a strong short-range force in this case, similar to that between the proton and neutron. Consequently N. Kemmer in 1938 proposed that the force between two protons is produced by the exchange of neutral mesons and the np, nn, and pp interactions all have the same strength apart from Coulomb forces. (Brush 1988: 380)

        When research in elementary-particle physics was resumed after WWII, it was found that the muon could not be the carrier of nuclear forces postulated by Yukawa. An experiment by M. Conversi, E. Pancini, and O. Piccioni (1947) showed that the interaction between muons and atomic nuclei is very weak. Several theorists argued that any forces transmitted by such particles would correspondingly be extremely weak. (Brush 1988: 380)

        About the same time C.F. Powell and G. Occhialini discovered two new charged particles (one +, one -) and were identified as Yukawa’s particles. The neutral pion postulated by Kemmer was somewhat more difficult to detect and was not identified until 1950. (Brush 1980: 380)

        The year 1947, which saw the discovery of the long-awaited Yukawa particle, also marked the beginning of the final phase in the history of quantum electrodynamics. (Brush 1988: 380)

        (….) That the pion has the properties postulated by Yukawa as the carrier of the strong interaction, just as the photon is the carrier of electromagnetic interactions, suggested that there should be a carrier of weak interactions (the “intermediate boson” or weakon, W) and also for gravity (the hypothetical graviton). (Brush 1988: 385) (Brush, Stephen G. The History of Modern Science: A Guide to the Second Scientific Revolution, 1800-1950. Ames: Iowa State University Press; 1988; p. 377; 380; 385.)

      • Meta Capitalism
        December 26, 2020 at 2:31 am

        Again you are reducing Science (modern natural sciences) to a form of culture. (Shiozawa, RWER, 12/25/2020)
        .
        Consider this regarding causation. Most facts have many different, possible, alternative explanations, but we want to find the best of all contrastive (since all real explanation takes place relative to a set of alternatives) explanations. In fact, there is no means, and never has been for humans to pick the “best” explanation. Our approach to causation needs to change. Causation is not a thing. It is a story. A story that explains within the framework of a specific culture how events or actors relate to one another, and how both relate to human society. For example, every society have a creation story that explains the origins of that society and its place in the “universe.” That’s causation, a story. A believable story we can share. (Zimmerman, RWER, 11/28/2018)

        .
        Here, Ken subsumes and reduces science and all human ways of thinking under the totalizing concept of culture. In this worldview there is “no means, and never has been for humans to pick the ‘best’ explanation.” History proves this claim false. When belief (faith) assumes to much it departs from reality and becomes a dogma or ideology. Ken has openly on this blog expressed his utter disdain for both philosophy and religion. He has claimed that there is no such thing as truth; that there is not such thing as great scientists, and the search for truth about the physical universe has no real facts or truth content. Yet, he uses a philosophy unconsciously in his views and defends the “truth” of his worldview on this forum, claiming one view is false or wrong and another right. The jumbled confused philosophy is everywhere to be seen.
        .
        Such radical reductionism “rejects the idea of truth, claiming that science (which is in continual flux) is totally revisable, philosophy (where fundamental debates continue without any resolution) is merely a matter of opinion, and religion (with its contradictory claims and tragic blunders) is an illusion. But radical skepticism subverts itself by ignoring some significant points. First, historical science is needed to establish the fact that scientific ideas change. Second, in order to dismiss philosophy, it is necessary to take a philosophical position and perhaps defend it with philosophical reasoning. Thus, the notion that philosophy is mere opinion implies that it itself merely an opinion, which could be wrong. (Wattles 2016, 47).” The radical reductive thesis that all is culture ultimately becomes entangled in its own greedy reductionism as it too becomes merely one opinion among a myriad of other opinions, none with more truth content than another. Of course, one could marshal an army of quotes form Ken on this blog where he argues the truth of one claim over and against another truth claim, so philosophical consistency appear to not be one of the salient features of his worldview.
        .
        Of course humans do have a means of discerning fact from fiction, truth from falsehood, and a ‘best’ explanation among a range of explanations. Science can provide answers that are better explanations than others and has done so throughout history. He does that exact thing here:
        .

        It is clear from the study of Sapiens evolution and cultural adaptation over a period of 200,000 years that acting and living cooperatively with care for one another is historically the usual situation for Sapiens. So how is it that recent humans (last 3000 to 5000 years) can accept this ludicrous statement from Gordon Tullock, “the average human being is about 95 percent selfish in the narrow sense of the term?” Evidence indicates that differences in cooperativeness are caused in part by training in economics. As one researcher notes, “it would be remarkable indeed if none of the observed differences in behavior were the result of repeated and intensive exposure to a model whose unequivocal prediction is that people will defect whenever self-interest dictates.” Should we be concerned that economics training may inhibit cooperation? Some might respond that while society would benefit if more people cooperated in social dilemmas, economists cannot be faulted for pointing out the unpleasant truth that self-interest dictates defection. But this conclusion is too simplistic. Yes, in some situations humans defect to self-interest. But research indicates that the main results from evolution and cultural adaptation afford humans the greatest advantages in terms of survival. Self-interested actions may improve the situation of individual humans in terms of survival but harm the survival chances of the species. Simply put, self-interested actions reduce the likelihood of our species surviving. This recognition is especially important today. In an ever more interdependent world, cooperation among Sapiens has become increasingly important—and yet increasingly fragile. With an eye toward both the welfare of our species and the well-being of their own students, economists may wish to stress a broader view of human impetus in their teaching. . (Zimmerman, RWER, 7/28/2018)

        .
        Humans use many forms of reasoning (deductive, inductive, abduction, intuition, imagination, etc.) and these are all used in the human scientific enterprise. Facts may always come with context and interpretation, but that doesn’t not mean they are without reasonable constraints. We believe in the scientific fact of evolution because multiple lines of evidence (facts) point to the same conclusion (life is descent with modification).
        .

        A mark of Darwin’s greatness was his unpretentious lucidity, which enabled him to write, “I am well aware that scarcely a single point is discussed in this volume on which facts cannot be adduced, often apparently leading to conclusions directly opposite to those at which I have arrived.” (Wattles 2016, 8) (….) Nothing is more basic to science than what Darwin called “hard, unbending facts”; nevertheless, a collection of facts by itself is not science. Darwin knew that skins and bones and “isolated facts soon become uninteresting.”14 To move from extensive collections of facts to science, he would work to explain the facts, “grouping them so that general laws or conclusions may be drawn from them.” (Wattles 2016, 9) (….) Darwin’s drive to piece together a grand narrative of evolution was combined with a scientist’s resolve to keep his broad theory based on facts. He did not dabble in untestable speculation and had a keen sense for the crucial difference between well-supported fact and speculative theory. “Unlike the atheists, seeking an alternative to Anglican Creationism in a chemical soup, Darwin kept ultimate origins out of the picture. Life’s initial appearance was inscrutable, he implied to [Robert] Hooker. All that should concern the naturalist was its subsequent change.”16 He avoided speculation about chemical evolution, the idea that living organisms arose spontaneously from inorganic, chemical elements. (Wattles 2016, 9)

        .
        It is inconsistent on the one hand to appeal to the scientific fact of the evidence of cooperation to counter the ideology of economic self-interest while on the other hand denying the existence of such “facts.” Things are simply not so simple as Ken’s subsuming (greedy reductionism) all under the rubric of culture as he implies.

      • Yoshinori Shiozawa
        December 26, 2020 at 3:05 am

        In answer to your question, “Can your culturalistic approaches distinguish Science from religions and occultism?” I reply, is it possible to distinguish completely science from politics or literature? I say not. (Ken Zimmerman on December 25, 2020 at 3:01 pm)

        So the conclusion: It is not possible to distinguish science from religion or occultism by your “culture” theory. That is what I expected when I set my question.

        All right. You have arrived to a right conclusion within your theory. I only think that your reply reveals the limit of your theory or anthropology. Don’t mind it. Every good theory has its limit. However, a theoretician who does not notice the limit of a theory is hard to say he or she is a good theoretician.

        (Appendage)
        You do not want to be a theoretician? Ah! It was slipping from my mind. That is a right possible standpoint.

      • Ken Zimmerman
        December 26, 2020 at 4:38 pm

        Yoshinori. My so called ‘culturistic’ approach cannot distinguish “Science from religions and occultism” because they are both part of a culture. That culture is of one fabric. Holistic might be a term with which you are familiar. Anthropologists try to be holistic in viewing the cultures people create. Within any certain culture there are common norms, values, ways of life, etc. that are built-into all parts of that culture. Whether the chosen parts you and others consider you choose to name economics. For example, religion and science from China will have more in common than either religion or science from another culture does to the same activities in China. Anthropologists attempt to allow the actors to speak, perform, and write their culture without getting in the way. This is the only ‘theories’ upon which anthropologists focus. Sometimes they do well. Other times not so well. And, speaking of the history of Anthropology, this certainly would not have been the stance of most anthropologists a hundred years ago.

      • Meta Capitalism
        December 26, 2020 at 7:04 am

        In answer to your question, “Can your culturalistic approaches distinguish Science from religions and occultism?” I reply, is it possible to distinguish completely science from politics or literature? I say not. (Ken Zimmerman on December 25, 2020 at 3:01 pm)
        .
        So the conclusion: It is not possible to distinguish science from religion or occultism by your “culture” theory. …. All right. You have arrived to a right conclusion within your theory. I only think that your reply reveals the limit of your theory or anthropology. (Yoshinori Shiozawa, RWER, 12/26/2020)

        .
        First, it is granting too much to assume that Ken’s personal philosophy (or viewpoint) represents the field of anthropology as a science per se. I don’t believe that all anthropologists take such an extreme anti-realist philosophical position in discussing their field. His views frequently go far beyond anthropology and the dividing line, like many of his ill-defined quotes exemplify, blurs the line between his own views and those of the field of anthropology. Second, he side-stepped the original question, which was with his argument and/or viewpoint “can one tell the difference between science and religion,” not whether there is “completely” a difference between the two. Shiozawa may not be aware of that subtle shift in meaning via rhetorical device. Third, to use the term “theory” in such a loosely define manner is itself assuming to much in my view. Apparently (per Shiozawa’s usage) theory is anything from informed opinion to a well found scientific theory based upon a range of facts and empirical evidence. Finally, the issue implied in the question is really a philosophical one.
        .

        The debate is between a position known as scientific realism and its converse, known as anti-realism or instrumentalism. (Okasha 2016, 54)

        Scientific realism and anti-realism

        The basic idea of scientific realism is straightforward. Realists hold that science aims to provide a true description of the world, and that it often succeeds. So a good scientific theory, according to realists, is one that truly describes the way the world is. This may sound like a fairly innocuous doctrine. For surely no one thinks that science is aiming to produce a false description of the world? But that is not what anti-realists think. Rather, anti-realists hold that the aim of science is to find theories that are empirically adequate, i.e. which correctly predict the results of experiment and observation. If a theory achieves perfect empirical adequacy, the further question of whether it truly describes the world is redundant, for anti-realists; indeed some argue that this question does not even make sense. (Okasha 2016, 54-55)

        The contrast between realism and anti-realism is starkest for sciences which make claims about the unobservable region of reality. Physics is the obvious example. Physicists advance theories about atoms, electrons, quarks, leptons, and other strange entities, none of which can be observed in the normal sense of the word; moreover these theories are typically couched in a highly mathematical language. So physical theories are rather different from the commonsense descriptions of the world that non-scientists give. Nonetheless, realists argue, these theories are attempts to describe the world—the subatomic world—and the measure of their success is whether what they say about the world is true. In this respect, scientific theories and commonsense descriptions of the world are on a par. (Okasha 2016, 55)

        Anti-realists argue that empirical adequacy, not truth, is the real aim of scientific theorizing. Physicists may talk about unobservable entities, but they are merely convenient fictions introduced in order to help predict observable phenomena. To illustrate, consider again the kinetic theory of gases, which says that any volume of gas contains a large number of very small entities in motion. These entities—molecules—are unobservable. From the kinetic theory we can deduce various consequences about the observable behaviour of gases, for example that heating a sample of gas will cause it to expand if the pressure remains constant, which can be verified experimentally. Anti-realists argue that the only purpose of positing unobservable entities in the kinetic theory is to deduce consequences of this sort. Whether or not gases really do contain molecules in motion doesn’t matter; the point of the kinetic theory is not to truly describe the hidden facts, but just to provide a convenient way of predicting observations. We can see why anti-realism is sometimes called ‘instrumentalism’—it regards scientific theories as instruments for helping us predict observable phenomena, rather than as attempts to describe the underlying nature of reality. (Okasha 2016, 55-56)

        Since the realism/anti-realism debate concerns the aim of science, one might think it could be resolved by simply asking the scientists themselves. Why not do a straw poll of scientists asking them about their aims? But this suggestion misses the point—it takes the expression ‘the aim of science’ too literally. When we ask what the aim of science is, we are not asking about the aims of individual scientists. Rather, we are asking how best to make sense of what scientists say and do—how to interpret the scientific enterprise. While it would certainly be interesting to discover scientists’ own views on the realism/anti-realism debate, the issue is ultimately a philosophical one. (Okasha 2016, 56, Philosophy of Science: Very Short Introduction. OUP.)

      • Ken Zimmerman
        December 26, 2020 at 4:17 pm

        Meta Capitalism. As Andrew Pickering (a sociologist and nuclear physicist) points out scientists frequently do not recognize the actions they take and the reasons they take them in their work until after the work is behind them. This is how scientists explain their work. Backwards. The work performed and the result achieved may seem one way while happening but what gets into the official texts and reports comes afterwards. So, which is the real science? That insight comes from a physicist working as a social scientist looking at high-energy physics and physicists.

        And your misunderstandings just grow. Culture is not a religion. It is the source of all religions. And the source of all sciences. Every group of people of which we have knowledge who have ever called the planet earth their home have created a culture. The cultures of course differ. But they share common elements. Two of those are religion and science. The first reflecting humans’ wonderment at the unknown that encompasses them. Humans invented gods, doctrines, and ceremonies to both humanize this unknown and to appease it when necessary. The second reflecting a desire by humans to create a rule-based and complete (as possible) knowledge of that unknown. Humans are thrown into a world of something, not certain precisely what. They both fear it and want to explain it. Thus, religion and science. Neither science nor religion are special because they ‘cross’ cultures. They cross cultures because each human group has a culture, and each culture has religion and science. Another thing each culture has is rules and norms (generally summarized under the term society). These rules and norms are the presuppositions of which you write. And they long preceded any sort of philosophical scheme. Meaning they are the sources of these schemes. And just as humans are unable to ever fully deal with the unknown that frightens and captivates them so their creations (religion and science) to take on this work are limited and incomplete. And will likely always remain so.

        Thanks for the partial review of early and mid-20th century physics. My advice, however, is that depending on physicists qua physicists to explain their work is fraught with many perils.

        In the hope of providing some context for my remarks, this is the definition of culture from Kenneth J. Guest author of a cultural anthropology textbook that is better than most.

        Culture is a system of knowledge, beliefs, patterns of behavior, artifacts, and institutions that are created, learned, shared, and contested by a group of people. Culture is our manual for understanding and interacting with the people and the world around us. It includes shared norms, values, symbols, mental maps of reality, and material objects as well as structures of power—including the media, education, religion, and politics [and science]— in which our understanding of the world is shaped, reinforced, and negotiated. A cultural group may be large or small, and it may have within it significant diversity of region, religion, race, gender, sexuality, class, generation, and ethnic identity. It may not be accepted by everyone, even those living in a particular place or time. But ultimately, the culture that we learn has the potential to shape our ideas of what is normal and natural, what we can say and do, and even what we can think. (Cultural Anthropology, a toolkit for a global age, second edition, 2017)

        There is an old joke among some physicists. When we open a box of paper clips, why are the clips often stuck to one another. Magnetism, Brownian motion, etc. The joke: because the clips are in love with one another. The second explanation is on first sight as plausible as the first. Our science-based culture favors the first, however. As for the story you repeat from me, it was actually from Andrew Pickering’s book, ‘Constructing Quarks: A Sociological History of Particle Physics.’ And your long diatribe about my rejection of truth, philosophy, etc. is just a very long way to say what Pickering says more succinctly.

        “In the scientist’s account, experiment is seen as the supreme arbiter of theory. Experimental facts dictate which theories are to be accepted and which rejected. Experimental data on scaling, neutral currents and charmed particles, for example, dictated that the quark-gauge theory picture was to be preferred over alternative descriptions of the world. There are, though, two well-known and forceful philosophical objections to this view, each of which implies that experiment cannot oblige scientists to make a particular choice of theories. First, even if one were to accept that experiment produces unequivocal fact, it would remain the case that choice of a theory is underdetermined by any finite set of data. It is always possible to invent an unlimited set of theories, each one capable of explaining a given set of facts. Of course, many of these theories may seem implausible, but to speak of plausibility is to point to a role for scientific judgment: the relative plausibility of competing theories cannot be seen as residing in data which are equally well explained by all of them. Such judgments are intrinsic to theory choice, and clearly entail something more than a straightforward comparison of predictions with data. Furthermore, whilst one could in principle imagine that a given theory might be in perfect agreement with all of the relevant facts, historically this seems never to be the case. There are always misfits between theoretical predictions and contemporary experimental data. Again judgments are inevitable: which theories merit elaboration in the face of apparent empirical falsification, and which do not?

        The second objection to the scientist’s version is that the idea that experiment produces unequivocal fact is deeply problematic. At the heart of the scientist’s version is the image of experimental apparatus as a ‘closed’, perfectly well understood system. Just because the apparatus is closed in this sense, whatever data it produces must command universal assent; if everyone agrees upon how an experiment works and that it has been competently performed, there is no way in which its findings can be disputed. However, it appears that this is not an adequate image of actual experiments. They are better regarded as being performed upon ‘open’, imperfectly understood systems, and therefore experimental reports are fallible. This fallibility arises in two ways. First, scientists’ understanding of any experiment is dependent upon theories of how the apparatus performs, and if these theories change then so will the data produced. More far reaching than this, though, is the observation that experimental reports necessarily rest upon incomplete foundations. To give a relevant example, one can note that much of the effort which goes into the performance and interpretation of HEP [high energy physics] experiments is devoted to minimising ‘background’- physical processes which are uninteresting in themselves, but which can mimic the phenomenon under investigation. Experimenters do their best, of course, to eliminate all possible sources of background, but it is a commonplace of experimental science that this process has to stop somewhere if results are ever to be presented. Again a judgment is required, that enough has been done by the experimenters to make it probable that background effects cannot explain the reported signal, and such judgments can always, in principle, be called into question. The determined critic can always concoct some possible, if improbable, source of error which has not been ruled out by the experimenters.

        Missing from the scientist’s account, then, is any apparent reference to the judgments entailed in the production of scientific knowledge- judgments relating to the acceptability of experimental data as facts about natural phenomena, and judgments relating to the plausibility of theories. But this lack is only apparent. The scientist’s account avoids any explicit reference to judgments by retrospectively adjudicating upon their validity. By this I mean the following. Theoretical entities like quarks, and conceptualisations of natural phenomena like the weak neutral current, are in the first instance theoretical constructs: they appear as terms in theories elaborated by scientists. However, scientists typically make the realist identification of these constructs with the contents of nature, and then use this identification retrospectively to legitimate and make unproblematic existing scientific judgments. Thus, for example, the experiments which discovered the weak neutral current are now represented in the scientist’s account as closed systems just because the neutral current is seen to be real. Conversely, other observation reports which were once taken to imply the non-existence of the neutral current are now represented as being erroneous: clearly, if one accepts the reality of the neutral current, this must be the case. Similarly, by interpreting quarks and so on as real entities, the choice of quark models and gauge theories is made to seem unproblematic: if quarks really are the fundamental building blocks of the world, why should anyone want to explore alternative theories?

        Most scientists think of it as their purpose to explore the underlying structure of material reality, and it therefore seems quite reasonable for them to view their history in this way. But from the perspective of the historian the realist idiom is considerably less attractive. Its most serious shortcoming is that it is retrospective. One can only appeal to the reality of theoretical constructs to legitimate scientific judgments when one has already decided which constructs are real. And consensus over the reality of particular constructs is the outcome of a historical process. Thus, if one is interested in the nature of the process itself rather than in simply its conclusion, recourse to the reality of natural phenomena and theoretical entities is self defeating.

        How is one to escape from retrospection in analysing the history of science? To answer this question, it is useful to reformulate the objection to the scientist’s account in terms of the location of agency in science. In the scientist’s account, scientists do not appear as genuine agents. Scientists are represented rather as passive observers of nature: the facts of natural reality are revealed through experiment; the experimenter’s duty is simply to report what he sees; the theorist accepts such reports and supplies apparently unproblematic explanations of them. One gets little feeling that scientists actually do anything in their day-to-day practice. Inasmuch as agency appears anywhere in the scientist’s account it is ascribed to natural phenomena which, by manifesting themselves through the medium of experiment, somehow direct the evolution of science. Seen in this light, there is something odd about the scientist’s account. The attribution of agency to inanimate matter rather than to human actors is not a routinely acceptable notion. In this book, the view will be that agency belongs to actors not phenomena: scientists make their own history, they are not the passive mouthpieces of nature. This perspective has two advantages for the historian. First, while it may be the scientist’s job to discover the structure of nature, it is certainly not the historian’s. The historian deals in texts, which give him access not to natural reality but to the actions of scientists-scientific practice. The historian’s methods are appropriate to the exploration of what scientists were doing at a given time, but will never lead him to a quark or a neutral current. And, by paying attention to texts as indicators of contemporary scientific practice, the historian can escape from the retrospective idiom of the scientist. He can, in this way, attempt to understand the process of scientific development, and the judgments entailed in it, in contemporary rather than retrospective terms- but only, of course, if he distances himself from the realist identification of theoretical constructs with the contents of nature.

        This is where the mirror symmetry arises between the scientist’s account and that offered here. The scientist legitimates scientific judgments by reference to the state of nature; I attempt to understand them by reference to the cultural context in which they are made. I put scientific practice, which is accessible to the historian’s methods, at the centre of my account, rather than the putative but inaccessible reality of theoretical constructs. My goal is to interpret the historical development of particle physics, including the pattern of scientific judgments entailed in it, in terms of the dynamics of research practice.” (pp. 5-8)

        Some scientists (e.g., physicists) push back on views such as those of Pickering. But then again none has as far as I know offered any rebuttal to Pickering’s explanation. In my view, one thing that is clearly the case is that the ‘realist’ claim in science is not only naïve but more important unproductive in the efforts to create not just more results from scientists’ research but also to create research that makes this more likely. Plus, we should keep in mind that the perspective Pickering offers is not new in science. Carl Sagan, Ludwik Fleck, Michael Polanyi, Barry Barnes among many others offer similar perspectives. Although Pickering’s appears to be the most developed thus far.

      • Meta Capitalism
        January 26, 2021 at 9:11 am

        Never said culture is religion Ken; as usual you slink into sophistry. Your ideology is your religion, our absolutizing of your own views is your religion. You don’t speak for all anthropologists as a very limited in reading the field shows. Which means you speak for yourself.

      • Ken Zimmerman
        January 26, 2021 at 12:15 pm

        The quote from which you begin your comment is the question can my culturistic approach distinguish religion from science. And I never said you said culture is religion.

      • Yoshinori Shiozawa
        December 27, 2020 at 6:54 am

        Ken, there is no problem even if your theory cannot distinguish Science and religion (and occultism). There is no need that a theory explain everything. If there is a theory that supports claim it can explain everything, it is a clear symptom that if is a fake or incoherent set of believes.

        What I care for is this: You have once claimed that all social sciences must be unified (or we should aim a total social science). But it is a dangerous strategy that may bring down all social sciences at the same level of logical coherence.

        Economics (including neoclassical economics) is a quite coherent system of concepts and theories, although neoclassical economics is completely wrong in a way that can be compared with geocentric system of Ptolemaic astronomy, which was a scholarship that was in a sense much more precise than actual economics [econometric predictions] (of course, this kind of judgment requires a common scale for comparison) and quite systematic. Economics needs a complete revision but we should not draw down it as we have drew down the statues of Lenin and other dictators. We need Copernicus and Kepler. Adding miscellaneous knowledge does not help much the revolution in economics.

      • Ken Zimmerman
        December 27, 2020 at 3:26 pm

        Yoshinori, but there are many ordinary people who know by habit and life in their culture what that difference is. It is just the ‘smart’ theoreticians that will likely never know. Or more accurately will never allow themselves to know.

        Speaking historically, the social sciences have a common origin, moral philosophy. I have never said we should recombine the social sciences. The different segments of social science provide social scientists an opportunity to cross reference and cross check one another. Never a bad thing. This includes both observational comparisons and comparisons of the goals and capabilities of social science and social scientists. If we assess economics as a social science in terms of those who live in and construct economies, we have done all we can do as social scientists to strengthen both the empirical and moral foundations of economics.

      • Yoshinori Shiozawa
        December 27, 2020 at 5:22 pm

        Ken > I have never said we should recombine the social sciences.

        It seems that I have been misunderstanding you for a long time. If you have only pointed that social sciences have a common origin, it is within the common knowledge.

        I have read your comment on Lars Syll’s article Econometrics — the art of pulling a rabbit out of a hat (December 26, 2020). I could not believe that was written by the same person as Ken Zimmerman. I have posted my reaction to the comment, although is is still waiting the “moderation.”

      • Ken Zimmerman
        December 27, 2020 at 6:32 pm

        Yoshinori. The social sciences as formal sciences began in moral philosophy. But the questions and actors they deal with and were dealt with by moral philosophy were dealt with by ordinary people in everyday life long before moral philosophy existed. Moral philosophy borrowed the work of these ordinary scientists both in content and intent. Without giving credit in most instances. And the social sciences did the same with moral philosophy in many instances. As I have said repeatedly mechanics, blacksmiths, armorers, farmers, etc. are the real originators of sciences such as biology, chemistry, genetics, etc. Just as Friars, astrologers, historians (mostly with little formal education), Biblical scholars, court jesters, etc. are the originators of social studies which evolved into social sciences.

      • Yoshinori Shiozawa
        December 28, 2020 at 4:32 am

        Ken, you see the uniformity and continuity in social sciences. I see the rupture and discontinuity. Both are possible in any time. The question is which is more urgent for economics. If neoclassical economics and mainstream economics based on it are in a cul-de-sac, continuity view has little to say about the future of economics, hasn’t it?. It needs a breakthrough. Let us consider what we can do for the economics.

      • Ken Zimmerman
        December 28, 2020 at 12:35 pm

        Yoshinori. To use a familiar phrase, the social sciences have the same subject and object. They are ‘in the same business.’ They all focus on understanding how and why people act and how to put the resulting knowledge to good use. Hopefully, in improving the lives of humans. In addition, their general approaches are similar. Observation hypotheses, theories, testing and experience, conclusions, and writing it up for publication. In these efforts, all social scientists in addition to writing, attend conferences to report research results, prepare programs to apply their research, and participate in meetings to improve social sciences and extend both its funding and its reach as a mitigator of social problems. All while respecting the personal dignity and privacy of the particular humans studied. Some social scientists in every nation on earth have at times overstepped the boundaries of their discipline and/or violated the rights of their subjects. More seriously some social scientists have used their disciplines to enforce racial, ethnic, religious, or national prejudices, even to the point of death. In somewhat less concernful situations social scientists have sought worthwhile goals by the most hellish approaches. Are the scales in social sciences balanced right now? I do not feel comfortable making that judgment. But it is a question social scientists need to ask themselves regularly.

      • Yoshinori Shiozawa
        December 28, 2020 at 1:37 pm

        Have a good new year!

      • Ken Zimmerman
        December 28, 2020 at 2:44 pm

        You too. And stay safe.

      • Craig
        January 26, 2021 at 8:32 pm

        Yoshinori Said: “We need Copernicus and Kepler. Adding miscellaneous knowledge does not help much the revolution in economics.”

        This is precisely the point. It’s complete pattern-paradigm level analysis that is necessary. That and the realization that paradigms are breakthrough single concepts that describe, and applied, transform the entire pattern by resolving the seeming intractable and deepest problems that have arisen out of the current paradigm.

        This is not an attempt to invalidate research using any valid discipline, it is simply a plea to “up one’s game” to considering a higher, more holistic and temporal universe effecting means of analysis that can be seen from historical pattern changes to reap such breakthroughs and progressions.

  6. Gerald Holtham
    December 21, 2020 at 3:34 pm

    No-one can doubt that science is a social human construct. It does not proceed by divine revelation, after all, but comes from the minds of men and women. It is inevitable that the questions asked and the approach to tackling them will be conditioned, if not determined, by social interests. The interests will not be purely those of the research community. A broader social necessity or interest often imposes itself. I cannot see anything controversial in any of that. Yet to say “.. any form of knowledge can be projected onto an indifferent and unresisting world” is to conflate two different things. The world may well be indifferent but it certainly isn’t unresisting. To take the example cited: we can conceptualise it how we like but dense objects dropped in the earth’s gravitational field will accelerate at 32 ft per second per second or equivalent in whatever metrics we employ. We can attribute it to a gravitational force, a distortion in space caused by mass, the action of God or witches. If our theory is any good it will tell us things we hadn’t suspected, like the trajectory of artillery shells or movements of the planets. If the theory has no implications beyond the original observation it is useless instrumentally. If it has implications that are repeatedly falsified by observation we can dismiss it as incomplete or simply false. The resistance of the physical world to nonsense is what makes physical science possible. And the readiness to acknowledge that resistance is essential to doing physical science. Social “science” is in a more complicated situation. The positive and the normative get intertwined. The practice of shooting the messenger or, at least questioning her motives, is firmly established. Moreover observation is part of the phenomena which it is observing. The outcome is changed by the practice of observation, a disconcerting instance of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle occurring in social phenomena as it does at sub-atomic scales. Furthermore social interests are intimately concerned so the ratio of social motivation to real-world “resistance” is different from the physical sciences meaning convenient nonsense can get perpetuated. Social arrangements and customs are also mutable and isolation of specific interractions from their social environment is rarely possible, even if it is meaningful, limiting analysis. None of that makes social “science” impossible in principle though it is difficult in practice and its achievements are understandably less, more contested and less durable than those of the physical sciences.

    • Meta Capitalism
      December 22, 2020 at 1:35 am

      Yet to say “.. any form of knowledge can be projected onto an indifferent and unresisting world” is to conflate two different things. The world may well be indifferent but it certainly isn’t unresisting. ~ Gerald on Kickability
      .
      Box 2.2: Reality as Kickability?

      Why can’t we be more straightforward and call physically real what is ‘kickable’ (Popper, Quantum Theory, 1982; Hacking, Representing, 1983; Deutsch, Fabric, 1997, Chap. 4). This criterion serves its purpose. Many objects and entities are ‘kickable’, even if at a particular moment in time the technology lets us down. At the end of the 19th century many scientists believed that atoms were not real. The technology was not there to manipulate them. The problem with this view is rather that science talks about reality of phenomena and regularities, which are not kickable, even in principle. The Big Bang is not kickable, nor is the universe as a whole. Although laws of nature can be used to manipulate objects, the molecules and electrons, the laws themselves are not kickable. We cannot kick the Principle of Evolution, the Conservation of Energy or Space-Time. Yet they represent structural regularities, which we want to call real. By contrast, some things are kickable, yet some may not want to regard them as real. The wave-particle duality can be manufactured in experiments, like the double-slit experiment, yet some only regard the waves others the particles as real. And of course we can kick relational. But we only get perspectival realities. (Weinert 2004, 71)

      .
      I really think you would enjoy Weinert Gerald.

    • Meta Capitalism
      December 22, 2020 at 1:50 am

      Yet to say “.. any form of knowledge can be projected onto an indifferent and unresisting world” is to conflate two different things. The world may well be indifferent but it certainly isn’t unresisting. ~ Gerald on Kickability

      .

      One of the basic tools of human thought in the process of understanding lies in the provisions of models, based on appropriate concepts. Models are used to gain understanding of the material world. Theories provide explanations. Under suitable conditions this leads to the natural sciences. Conceptual models can also be used to describe and explain the ways humans acquire knowledge about the natural world around them. Under suitable conditions this leads to philosophy. The interaction between facts and concepts and the interaction between science and philosophy give rise to a fundamental tension, which will reverberate throughout the pages of this study. The more fundamental their concepts are, the more humans cherish them. But when the facts speak against the adequacy of the concepts, something needs to give way. Throughout the history of science, scientists and philosophers have often give up or modified the concepts in favor of the facts. Dissatisfied with the everyday notions of time and space, Newton set forth his notions of absolute time and space. Dissatisfied with the notions of absolute time and space, Einstein set forth his notions of relativistic time and space. In many of his writings, Einstein warned against fixation on concepts. It would hinder the progress of science. Concepts, which once ordered the phenomena adequately, were always in danger of becoming ‘thought necessities’ (Denknotwendigkeiten). Fundamental concepts like Nature, time and causation were dependent on experience. Therefore, they were always subject to revision or rejection, depending on their empirical adequacy. Such philosophical reasoning formed the backbone of Einstein’s revolution in physics.
      .
      (….) Einstein considered that the demand for a causal explanation of the world had a clear sense, even though it could not be strictly realised in practice. Like Planck, Einstein rejected the idea that statistical laws would govern fundamental physical processes. In practice, though, our knowledge may amount to no more than knowledge of statistical regularities…. Due to our ignorance of how individual molecules move in a collection of particles, we can only formulate statistical regularities about their collective behaviour. But we assume that individual molecules are governed by perfectly deterministic laws.
      .
      (….) Einstein’s ambiguous attitude towards the fundamental notions — his readiness to reject the Newtonian notions of absolute and universal time and space and his reluctance to abandon the classical notion of causation — points to a general problem. Let us call it Einstein’s problem. When should fundamental notions be modified, if not abandoned, in the face of experimental or observational evidence? How much authority does the empirical evidence command over the fundamental notions? There is always a precarious balance between the concepts and the facts. Their interaction constitutes the common territory between science and philosophy. But the one does not reduce to the other. We called this interaction the dialectic between science and philosophy. (Weinert 2004: 96)
      .
      The philosopher is invited to move from the facts to the most fundamental concepts. The physicists were aware that ‘old notions are discarded by new experiences.’ However, it is precisely Einstein’s problem to determine to which extent revolutionary scientific discoveries have philosophical consequences. It is the job of the philosopher to evaluate whether or not some of the fundamental notions do bend under the weight of evidence, as the scientists claim they do. When we move from facts to the concepts, the most natural transition occurs from science to philosophy. The most interesting collaboration emerges. The scientists question the fundamental notions, on the strength of the evidence. The scientists claim that empirical evidence can test and refute the fundamental notions. Heisenberg holds that due to empirical discoveries not only the content but also the structure of our thinking can change. New notions are set in place. A dual process is at work. New evidence often does show the inadequacy of the old notions. In this sense new discoveries offer constraints on the conceptual models of the fundamental notions. But the scientist’s enthusiasm for the refutation of old notions may be too optimistic. Philosophy does not yield so easily to the verdict of science. The philosophical consequences, which the scientist draws from the new discoveries, may not follow — or may not follow in the way imagined. (Weinert 2004: 97)

      (….) So the dialectic will take the following form. Philosophical presuppositions — i.e., implicit or explicit assumptions like determinism — pervade scientific thinking. New discoveries may highlight the problematic nature of these presuppositions. Many scientists begin to wonder about the adequacy of the old conceptual assumptions. They draw philosophical conclusions from the discoveries. These are the philosophical consequences, which need to be evaluated. (Weinert 2004: 98)

      (….) It is true that scientific discoveries have always had philosophical consequences. But concepts are not mere maids to facts. And facts are not simple servants to concepts. There is a dialectic between concepts and facts, science and philosophy …. (Weinert 2004: 98)

      • Craig
        December 22, 2020 at 5:22 am

        “There is a dialectic between concepts and facts, science and philosophy”

        Yes, thesis, antithesis and synthesis is the integrative process and Capitalism, Socialism and Direct Monetary Distributism is the dialectic we are all seeking.

        “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.” Albert Einstein

      • Ken Zimmerman
        December 22, 2020 at 2:35 pm

        Meta Capitalism. Quite correct, the objects of study of scientists often push back with non-confirming results when theories (explanations) that do not fit who or what they are, are applied to them. But non-confirming is a human concern. And not a relevant one if humans do not notice the result. Yes, events or entities may resists human efforts to define or study them. That does not matter, however, if humans do not notice the resistance. In the physical sciences resistance may be too small, infrequent, or literally on the wrong frequency to be noticed by human observing. This is even more problematic for sciences of human society and culture. Society and culture are by their form mutable from many angles and many sources. In the social sciences it is thus more difficult for the social scientist to figure out when and how much they have been kicked.

      • Meta Capitalism
        December 22, 2020 at 10:21 pm

        Anticipating the solar eclipse of August 1999, Eddington wrote in 1935:
        The shadow of the moon in Cornwall in 1999 is already in the world of inference. (Weinert 2004, 99; Eddington 1935, 92, New Pathways in Science.)
        .
        But non-confirming is a human concern. And not a relevant one if humans do not notice the result. Yes, events or entities may resists human efforts to define or study them. That does not matter, however, if humans do not notice the resistance. In the physical sciences resistance may be too small, infrequent, or literally on the wrong frequency to be noticed by human observing. This is even more problematic for sciences of human society and culture. Society and culture are by their form mutable from many angles and many sources. In the social sciences it is thus more difficult for the social scientist to figure out when and how much they have been kicked. ~ Ken Zimmerman, emphasis added

        .
        Overall (albeit not perfectly) I follow much of your argument Ken and agree that social science cannot be reduced to natural science like physics. Perhaps were we differ is I believe there is a real physical universe “out there” and we can understand something about that physical universe within our minds through science. Of course ultimately everything we know is mediated via mind and hence hardly a mirror-like reflection of reality. But neither in my view is it totally an illusion or mere creation of mind (I am not sure that is what you are saying); the shadow of the moon in Cornwall was cast across the earth regardless of how humans viewed it or didn’t view it. The physical evolution of the earth takes place regardless of how we understand it. And so on.

      • January 26, 2021 at 6:21 pm

        “One of the basic tools of human thought in the process of understanding lies in the provisions of models, based on appropriate concepts. Models are used to gain understanding of the material world. Theories provide explanations.”

        Let me add:

        Problems emerge, however, when there are ‘lies’ buried in the models themselves or in their conceptual foundations. Such models then seek not so much to ‘explain’ what they talk about but to put what they talk about in molds which frame understanding and interpretations of reality while ignoring, explaining away, or simply (ex post) absorbing much to all of the empirical evidence which shows that the theory itself is poorly constructed. The ex post absorption proceeds by relaxing this or that assumption of the theory underlying the model constructed from it. This rescues the theory itself, it’s said, by making it more ‘realistic’.

        The reality most descriptive of conventional, mainstream and less orthodox theory is that the received foundations of economic theory today contain ‘lies’ disguised as concepts themselves or as explanations of budget constraints leading to all manners of income and substitution effects, these based upon 1. endowing consumers with preferences; and 2. endowing them with fixed budgets; and 3) ignoring the differences between benefits from use (a.k.a. values-in-use) and value-in exchange, this latter always being the trade value of goods or services relative to a numeraire used as a standard of value and unit of account for such all trade values.

        Endowing consumers simultaneously with preferences and with fixed budgets to say anything at all about their behavior shows the inadequacy of the theoretical foundations. I might as well talk about the behavior of horses on the basis that the resemble unicorns, not having any idea how horse behave but having clearly formulated how unicorns do. The end result of such theorizing leads to the conclusion that if we could only get horses to behave as rationally as unicorns do, then all would be well, for then (but only then) their welfare would improved to that ‘rational’ unicorns always enjoy.

        And that attitude– need I say it?– is perilous for our actual material welfare and for our other forms of human welfare as bio-psycho-social human beings all of the time.

    • Ken Zimmerman
      December 22, 2020 at 2:06 pm

      Gerald Holtham, look over my reply to Yoshinori. When people observed entities like apples falling from trees to the ground on a regular basis or iron balls dropped from a tower falling in the same fashion, they invented the concept and later science and mathematics of gravity to explain (theorize) these events. Since the addition of relativity to this rhetoric people now theorize there could be other sciences and other mathematics for these events in other times and places in the universe. But within the original theory, the math comes out 32ft per second per second. This is how science remains robust within a universe we now recognize is not fixed but chaotic. This difficulty is more acute in sciences such as sociology, economics, etc. whose objects of study build their own cultures which are the outward showing presentation of these objects. As you say, none of this makes social science impossible. Just more difficult to practice for scientists who must be much humbler about their depictions of their objects of study.

      • Meta Capitalism
        December 22, 2020 at 11:08 pm

        This difficulty is more acute in sciences such as sociology, economics, etc. whose objects of study build their own cultures which are the outward showing presentation of these objects. As you say, none of this makes social science impossible. Just more difficult to practice for scientists who must be much humbler about their depictions of their objects of study. ~ Ken on Need for Humility

        .
        I think that your emphasis that sociology and economics are “performative,” and “build their own cultures” (as does any scientific community to one degree or another) and therefore “result not from the natural order but from human decisions” is correct. I agree with you here wholeheartedly.
        .

        The Inequality Crisis, which threatens our societies, and the Climate Crisis, which threatens both our societies and our species, are also, no less than production, brought about directly by the everyday operations of our economies. (Fullbrook and Morgan 2020, 3)

        But for two hundred years the economics profession has in the main excluded from its study of economies two of their three categories of primary effects. And given the profession’s influence, this exclusion of societal and ecological effects has promoted the intellectual invisibility of these two categories, thereby helping to bring about the two cirisis. (Fullbrook and Morgan 2020, 3)

        Compared to the Climate Crisis, which, although only recently acknowledged, has been in the making for over a century and a half, the Inequality Crisis is young. The massive redistribution of income and wealth which brought it about began in the 1970s, but until 2014 that redistribution was, except in the Real World Economics Review and other journals outside the neoclassical mainstream, almost never mentioned. Although there is still a long way to go, Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the Twenty-First Century changed that…. (Fullbrook and Morgan 2020, 3)

        Meanwhile, the effects of that redistribution have become increasingly manifest, so much so that even in time of pandemic they make the daily news. In democracies it seems to be that the more extreme the upward redistribution becomes, the more politically aggressive the ultrarich become. And when they capture political parties and then, as in the United States, rule and reshape their countries’ institutions, a moral vacuum emerges wherein victims of the redistribution look for vulnerable groups to scapegoat, and a populism of the pre-fascist variety takes hold. (Fullbrook and Morgan 2020, 4)

        But income and wealth distributions, unlike gravitational forces, result not from the natural order but from human decisions. And the general direction of those decisions now needs to become part of open public discussion. Regarding the distribution of income and wealth, human society now has three basic options:

        1. Continue with the upward redistribution,
        2. Maintain the current distribution,
        3. Reverse the redistribution of recent decades.
        (Fullbrook, Edward and Morgan Jamie, eds. The Inquality Crisis. Middletown, DE: WEA; 2020; pp. 3-5. (World Economic Association.)

      • Ken Zimmerman
        December 24, 2020 at 3:56 pm

        Meta Capitalism, I have no issues with your belief that there is a physical universe out there. In societies such as those that exist today, this is one of the cultures related to science and knowledge that exists alongside several other options. I am an anthropologist. Studying cultures is literally my business. But these differing cultural frameworks will lead those who live them down different pathways to different results and conclusions. To put it simply, reality is that to which we pay attention. The shadow of the moon becomes real when we see it, attempt to conceptualize it so for example we can tell others about it, build areas of study for it, along with associated things like scientific disciplines, mathematics, etc. Humans can not notice or pay attention to everything and every event around them. And certainly not all remote, historical, or ‘unimportant’ (as defined by some authority) events and entities. You are incorrect that physical evolution of the earth occurs regardless of whether humans understand it. Physical evolution is a human concept, which occurs because humans invented it to occur. Certainly, the earth can and often does change. Whether those changes are noted and conceptualized and theorized by human to fulfill their cultural interests is my focus as one who studies such things. As noted by one anthropologist, we stub our toe on entities at our feet. Those entities become rocks only when humans invent the concept of rock, the theories of rocks, the sciences of rocks, the mathematics of rocks, etc.

        That such concepts, theories, sciences, mathematics, etc. can create harm to humans, the planet (again a human invention), and both together goes without saying. No guarantee of safety or good works goes with any of them. It is also the case that other possible concepts, etc. can be created that might be more beneficial for planet and humans. It is also the case that such inventions and inventive work often interact. For example, dominant notions of economics and our concepts, etc. of the planet. There is little doubt that exploitative economics is often tied to ‘planet as resource concepts.’ Finally, cultural frameworks (configurations) once put in place are sometimes difficult to rescind since such work creates ‘winners and losers.’ This moves us into political conceptions of humans and societies, how and who has the right to make decisions for society, and the place of ‘individual rights.’

        The rabbit Illustrates the power of culture. Here the rabbit is literally willing, in fact demanding to sacrifice its life for its culture. Even though what seems a safer, healthier, and more productive culture stands before it.

        As for the options you identify for the future of the distribution of wealth and income, the most likely avenue right now seems, “Continue with the upward redistribution.” Changing this culture that has endured for so long is not unlike asking a person to leave the light and warmth of their home for a dark and foreboding thick forest filled with dangerous trails and deadly animals. As my drill instructor put it, we do it by forcing them out at rifle point. Right now, the rifles are all in a circle preparing to fire. That creates deaths, injuries, confusion, anger, and fear. But little cultural change.

  7. Meta Capitalism
    December 22, 2020 at 10:29 pm

    A wild rabbit was caught and taken to a National Institutes of Health laboratory. When he arrived, he was befriended by a rabbit that had been born and raised in the lab.

    One evening the wild rabbit noticed that his cage hadn’t been properly closed and decided to make a break for freedom. He invited the lab rabbit to join him. The lab rabbit was unsure, as he had never been outside the lab, but the wild rabbit finally convinced him to give it a try.

    Once they were free, the wild rabbit said, “I’ll show you the number-three best field,” and took the lab rabbit to a field full of lettuce.

    After they had eaten their fill, the wild rabbit said, “Now I’ll show you the number-two best field,” and took the lab rabbit to a field full of carrots.

    After they had had their fill of carrots, the wild rabbit said, “Now I’ll show you the number-one best field,” and took the lab rabbit to a warren full of female bunnies. It was Heaven—nonstop lovemaking all night long.

    As dawn was beginning to break, the lab rabbit announced that he would have to be getting back to the lab.

    “Why?” said the wild rabbit. “I’ve shown you the number-three best field with the lettuce, the number-two best field with the carrots, and the number-one best field with the ladies. Why do you want to go back to the lab?”

    The lab rabbit replied, “I can’t help it. I’m dying for a cigarette!”

    Such are the benefits of an organized society.

    — Cathcart, Thomas; Klein, Daniel. Plato and a Platypus Walk Into a Bar. . .: Understanding Philosophy Through Jokes . ABRAMS. Kindle Edition.

    • January 26, 2021 at 6:29 pm

      I very much like that joke. In a sense, economists are addicted to their explanations of human behavior.

  8. Gerald Holtham
    December 24, 2020 at 5:54 pm

    Ken, I accept entirely your qualification. It seems to me we are on much the same page on this one, Meta too.

    • Meta Capitalism
      December 24, 2020 at 10:01 pm

      Concepts like understanding and meaning are usually associated with a particular view of the Social Sciences. Social life produces and reproduces symbolic meaning. Social scientists need to acquire an understanding of the inherent symbolic meaning in social life. They do this, it is said, by adopting the viewpoint of a passive participant observer. In this view, the role of the social scientist is seen as distinctly different from that of the natural scientist. The object of study of the social scientist is society, the network of social interactions. Society does not exist outside the bracket of social interactions. The social sciences deal with the pre-interpreted world of the social participants. The social scientist interprets a social world, which already carries symbolic meaning. The symbolic meaning of the social world is produced and reproduced by the social actors. The study of the social world by social scientists is a matter of human subjects studying other human subjects. It is a matter of symbolic dimensions meeting other symbolic dimensions, a subject-subject relation. (Weinert 2004, 75)

      The object of study of the natural scientist is Nature, the organic or inorganic material world. In this objective sense Nature is not a human product. But, in a symbolic sense, ‘Nature’ is a creation of human understanding. In their interaction with the material world, humans conceptualise Nature in an attempt to understand its functioning. Models, theories and laws are the result. They reflect in symbolic form what successive epochs understood by ‘Nature’. The concept of ‘Nature’ belongs to the category of fundamental notions with which humans represent the natural world. Humans also use fundamental concepts to explain how they, as humans, manage to comprehend the world around them. Do [sic] to this, humans employ such fundamental concepts as determinism, indeterminism and causation, time and space, mass and energy, motion and rest. (Weinert 2004: 75-76)
      .
      Natural scientists face a pre-given natural world, not the symbolic, pre-interpreted world of the social scientist. Natural scientists stand in in a subject-object relation to their object of study. Yet they use symbolic language to make sense of the material world. Questions of understanding and meaning have been familiar to the scientific enterprise throughout history. Like the ancient Greeks, natural scientists face a complex of often bewildering phenomena. There is first the question of how the observable phenomena behave. The observational and experimental data reveal patterns of regularity. Then there is the intriguing question why the phenomena behave in such particular patterns of regularity. In an attempt to answer such questions such questions, the natural scientist aims at understanding and explanation. Copernicus defended his heliocentric hypothesis (1543) by pointing out that it provided a more coherent understanding of the orbits of the planets than the geocentric hypothesis. In his Novum Organum (1620) Francis Bacon proposed ‘directions for the interpretation of Nature.’ In his interpretation of the phenomena of heat Bacon gave a clear indication of what later scientists would come to mean by understanding in the natural sciences. Bacon reduced the phenomenon of heat to motion. Heat was nothing but motion. The basic move is to go beneath the level of observable phenomena (‘heat’) to a more fundamental level (‘motion’). Bacon’s programme had no mathematical precision. This has changed since the Scientific Revolution. But the basic move is still present in today’s attempts at understanding. Students of quantum mechanics are familiar with the distinction between the mathematical formalism of the theory and its physical interpretation. The interpretation of quantum mechanics in terms of physical reality poses considerable problems. There are rival interpretations. These often involve suggestions to revise the fundamental notions with which Nature been traditionally described. As we have seen, the notion of Nature has borne much of the brunt of these conceptual revisions. However, the question of how the mathematical symbols are to be interpreted physically is much older than quantum mechanics. A perusal of the relevant literature quickly reveals that the question of the meaning of mathematical symbols and equations and their physical interpretation has accompanied the scientific work of scientists for a long time. Scientists of the 17th century sought to explain the propagation of light and gravitation across empty space by postulating the existence of an ether, which filled space. In a characteristic passage Einstein wrote that the equivalence of gravitational and inertial masses ‘had hitherto been recorded in mechanics, but it had not been interpreted.’ And it was Einstein’s interpretation of this equivalence, which paved the way to his theory of general relativity. (Weinert 2004: 76-77)
      .
      (….) This means that the fundamental concepts used in the natural sciences depend, to a certain extent, on the empirical findings. With characteristic clarity, Einstein expressed this dependency succinctly when he said that logically, the fundamental concepts (‘time’, ‘space’, ‘mass’, ‘event’) were free creations of the human mind, but they had empirical roots. (Weinert 2004: 77)

      .
      Weinert is one of my favorite books that speaks to these issues. He brings a lot of clarity.

      • Ken Zimmerman
        December 25, 2020 at 2:54 pm

        Meta Capitalism. I see it this way. The object of study of a ‘social’ scientist is the same as the object of study of a ‘physical’ scientist. They just use them for different purposes. The object of study of scientists is what people make. Whether we call that symbolic, natural, buildings, or history. Some scientists focus on how people do this making to help show us how people not only make themselves but also the things around them like rocks, trees, the Sun, animals, and of course language and mathematics. Other scientists focus on what gets made, how these made things relate to and effect humans, relate to one another, and come and go. This work can include a belief by the scientist that these ‘physical’ things created by humans in some fashion capture a ‘real’ world existing apart from humans. But this belief is not essential to the work. What is essential is that the relationships among the physical objects and their relationship to humans be depicted as precisely and with as much detail as possible.

        It is not inaccurate to say that humans conceptualize physical objects. Humans enclose the physical in culture. This is the only route for humans in conceptualizing the physical in their lives. These conceptualizations always include the physical objects as very much bodily available to us via our 5 senses. Thus, we see a rock as concept is also the rock that can crack your skull. With humans, a person, individual, personality, social actor stands before us after humans create these things. Something we bump into was always there. But what the hell is it? That is where human creativity enters the process.

        This extended quote does raise one interesting question that anthropologists and archeologists have sought to answer for two centuries. How did a system for counting our fingers and toes (mathematics) get tied up with humans’ pursuit of knowledge of themselves and their creations? Have not seen a satisfactory answer thus far, in my view.

  9. Yoshinori Shiozawa
    December 26, 2020 at 4:21 am

    Weinert points an actual urgent problem for economics, which must be the main concern for us in this blog.

    This means that the fundamental concepts used in the natural sciences depend, to a certain extent, on the empirical findings. With characteristic clarity, Einstein expressed this dependency succinctly when he said that logically, the fundamental concepts (‘time’, ‘space’, ‘mass’, ‘event’) were free creations of the human mind, but they had empirical roots. (Weinert 2004: 77, cited in Meta Capitalism on December 24, 2020 at 10:01 pm)

    In many of his writings, Einstein warned against fixation on concepts. It would hinder the progress of science. Concepts, which once ordered the phenomena adequately, were always in danger of becoming ‘thought necessities’ (Denknotwendigkeiten).(Weinert 2004: 96, cited in Meta Capitalism on December 22, 2020 at 1:50 am)

    When should fundamental notions be modified, if not abandoned, in the face of experimental or observational evidence? (Weinert 2004: 96, cited in Meta Capitalism on December 22, 2020 at 1:50 am)

    The last citation is crucial. Economics (at least mainstream economics) has accumulated a number of anomalies and ineffectiveness. Is it time to change fundamental notions in face of the present state of economics. I believe it is the time.

    If we agree with this, the next question is (1) how to achieve it (a modification of fundamental notions, build a new economics, a revolution in economics, any expression you like). Closely related questions are: (2) Which concepts and theories should be overthrown? and (3) What kind of changes is most promising?

    In the case of Einstein, (2) was the refutation of absolute space and time. But, to arrive at (1), he was obliged to redefine the simultaneity of events. I do not know what helped him to arrive at the right solution, but most probably he must have repeated many questions like (3) within him.

    Arguing (2) surely contributes to (1). But (2) alone cannot achieve (1). It needs (3) and other proper efforts to achieve (1).

  1. No trackbacks yet.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.