Home > Uncategorized > Economics as science in the world of great power politics (1800-present)

Economics as science in the world of great power politics (1800-present)

from Robert Locke

Recently there has been a spate of postings and comments in the rwer blog about economics as science; they invariably deal with the relative degree of autism of orthodox economics along the lines that originally spawned the post-autistic economics movement, the rwer and the blog. The subject debated is the relative failure of an economics discipline based on the behavior of individuals in markets to guide policy formulation in the real world.

For historians the birth of classical economics emerged from the great London-centered international trade emporium that developed between 1750-1875.  Without the emporium classical economics would not have come into existence or have made a major contribution itself to the development of the emporium. But, as I wrote in an essay published in the rwer (2012),

“If the historian’s attention shifts from the British Imperial emporium to late eighteenth and early nineteenth century central Europe, he/she finds people preoccupied with a different set of problems that developed into different types of economic postulates from those that preoccupied classical economists as they set economics off on its long journey.  The era of the French Revolution and Napoleon amounted to thirty years of upheaval that brought kingdoms and empires low, and abolished principalities and city states.  Survival of political entities became the problematic.”

The question I raise concerns the ability of a science that stemmed from the British Imperial emporium to explain the economic basis of great power politics, which has been a principal preoccupation of people since 1800.  

List and Clausewitz in the Age of classical economics and power politics

That classical economics could not help explain the rise and fall of nation states in international competition, Frederich List (1789-1846) clearly states in his voluminous writings of the post Napoleon era.  (See the definitive coverage of List in Daastøl, and Levy-Faur’s essay))

List affirmed that classical economics is itself not a science but the intellectual superstructure whose principles supported the hegemony of the London based emporium, promoting its economic dominance over other nations. Moreover, for List classical economics through its definition of capital and how it is accumulates justified the predominance of the capitalist within the income and wealth structure of the London hegemon.  Daastøl points out that in the world of classical economics, the engine of growth is capital investment, which means that capital accumulation is the prerequisite for a steady advance in technology. But capital accumulation, which depends on net income (defined as the surplus above the cost of maintaining the labor force at a subsistence level) stagnates Ricardo argues, if the surplus above the cost of keeping workers alive at subsistence level falls to zero.  The postulates of classical economics holds out a dismal prospect for working people because they justify setting their incomes at subsistence levels in order to augment the saving needed for investment that assures growth.

Although List agreed with Adam Smith that division of labor is an important cause for increased productivity, he thought that the union of labor – “the confederation of labour” – was just as important a factor. He severely criticized Smith for dealing too shortly with the opposite side of the coin, namely for devising an economics that neglected the confederation of labor: ‘The cause of the productiveness of these operations is not merely that division [of labour]’, he wrote, ‘but essentially this union.’ Daastøl, 239-44.

Accordingly, he did not believe that capital enhancement came principally through increased division of labor, but through improvements in the situation of working people as collective mental capital. He advocated training and education programs that improved practical skills and pushed fiscal reforms that would help the poor. In other words, List did not look at the economic process in terms of the individual’s action in the market place, but in terms of the mental capital accumulation within countries, expressed in social economic networking involved in mental capital formation. List reasoned sociologically and culturally; he opened the door to comparative analysis necessary to judge the relative power of nations. In this respect, his writing is a forerunner of habitat analysis, which has become essential to understanding modern economic clustering. (See, Locke and  Schöne (2004), Ch I.)

In my article about Clausewitz, I conclude that he like List, although excluded from the ranks of classical economists, should be included among economists preoccupied with great power rivalry, since he lived most of his adult life in an era of continuous war, wrote about it (his unfinished classic, Vom Krieg (1832) is arguably the most famous work on the subject like Smith’s The Wealth of Nations is in economics), took the state as the basic analytical unit in war but also in economics and in this respect differs fundamentally from Smith and his disciples who concentrated on the individual actor competing in the market place.  Although Clausewitz was as much aware of the importance of physical capital’s contribution to the prowess of states and organizations as any classical economist, he shared List’s vision about the importance of mental capital formation and how it is institutionalized in order to project power.  In war and economics, Clausewitzians understood the important of esprit de corps in competitive economic and military situations, the significance of charisma to a leaders success, and the unpredictability of its appearance in the form of a Napoleon Bonaparte or a Steve Jobs, and worked out practical steps to deal with the unexpected by systematizing through educational networking close coordination of staff and operations, which are the hallmark of well functioning large organizations today.

Both List and Clausewitz, then, in the age of classical economics (Clausewitz died in 1831, List in 1846), made major contributions to our understanding of the factors involved in fostering mental capital formation essential to the underpinning of state power. 

Neoclassical economics in an age preoccupied with the transformation of great power relations (1850-1914)

Fullbrook describes how the architects of neoclassical economics matched their new discipline isomorphically with Newtonian mechanics:

In Neoclassical economics, ‘bodies’ translates ‘individuals’ or agents’, ‘motions’ translates ‘exchange of goods’, ‘forces’ translates ‘desires’ or ‘preferences’, which when summed become ‘supply and demand, ‘mechanical equilibrium’ becomes ‘market equilibrium’, this being when the difference between supply and demand is zero, and ‘physical systems’ translates ‘markets.’…All exchanges were said to magically take place at the prices that equated demand and supply. (Fullbrook, 2006, 2)

No viable science would mean much unless expressed mathematically. That was the glory of Newtonian mechanics. In the second half of the 19th century Léon Walras, preceded by some French economic-engineers (Locke, 1989, 124-26), mathematized neoclassical economics. With this achievement he stated in his Elements of Pure Economics, economics has become a “science, which resembles the physico-mathematical.”

Advocates of physico-mathematical formulation of economics tried to brush aside institutional-historical economics as “unscientific,” in the famous 19th century Methodenstreit.  It is, if the yardstick of judgment is physico-mathematical. The problem is that, despite Walras’ claim, no triumph of a physico-mathematical based economics as a prescriptive science occurred, because of the mathematical inadequacies of neoclassical economics.  John von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern pointed this out seventy years after Walras’ “achievement.” In the foreword to Theory of Games and Economic Behavior (1944), they wrote: ‘The concepts of economics are fuzzy but even in those parts of economics where the descriptive problem has been handled more satisfactorily, mathematical tools have seldom been used appropriately. Mathematical economics has not achieved very much.’ (p. 8)

Neoclassical economics not only failed as a prescriptive science in its own physico-mathematical terms,  as the Neumann and Morgenstern 1944 quote illustrates, but its method were no more suited to comparative analysis of great power rivalry, which is the focus here, than those of classical economics.

Consider the specific issue with which late 19th century Europeans grappled: the relative decline of France and Victorian Britain, and the rise of a united Germany as great powers and what the second industrial revolution, with its new science based industries, in which Germany led in Europe, had to do with these changing power relationships.

In order for economics to have much to say on the subject it has to be treated in institutional-cultural terms that afford international comparisons.  Maria Alejandra Madi in her September 20 2017 posting, “The institutional approach to labor economics” reminds us of our heritage, but she stymies comparability by restricting her comments to Americans. In his essay “Technik comes to America: Changing Meanings of Technology before 1930,” Eric Schatzberg provides one.  He points out how the American concept of technology came to incorporate ideas about Technik formulated in Imperial Germany (1871-1918).  In Germany the idea of Technik [the combination of Können (practical skills and industrial arts) and Wissen (knowledge)] and the networking of technical and commercial schools, trade schools, apprenticeship programs into the fabric of production provided a basis for understanding the shift in great power relations c. 1914, because Technik amounted to a new civilization based on different definitions of science.

Francis X. Hezel, SJ, observed that in The Wealth and Poverty of Nations, the economic historian David Landes “concludes that the success of national economies is driven by cultural factors more than anything else. In his view, Max Weber was right after all in suggesting that social attitudes and values have the decisive say on what economies will succeed and which will fail.” (Cited in “The Role of Culture in Economic Development.”)

The Germans who proselytized the idea of Technik were historical economists (e.g., Gustav Schmoller, Max Weber, and Werner Sombart) and the analytical tradition they followed in their work was Listian and Clausewitzian.  Moreover, the Americans involved in the transfer of the concept of Technik to America were institutional economists, primus among whom stood Thorstein Veblen. They dominated the debate c. 1900, in a way that made analysis of the economic basis of changing great power relations possible. The precepts of a physico-mathematical neoclassical economics provided little insight into such comparative cultural matters, except from a Listian perspective.

The era of neoclassical dominance in economics and Making America Great Again (1970-present)

Neoclassical economics came to dominate discourse in departments of economics and business schools after the extensive educational reforms carried out in the 1960s (Khurana) during the period of American political and economic hegemony, 1945-1980.  As they took over, the neoclassical economists eliminated institutionalist from the club, meaning in this context that they got rid of the economists whose work fostered comparative work on national systems.  Their disappearance did not matter much during the three decades after the war, for in the capitalist world there was only one model, the American; few questioned its superiority.  Alfred D Chandler Jr. who won a Pulitzer Prize in history (1977) for his studies about the rise of the Visible Hand of US corporate management believed that countries that did not follow the American way would become hopelessly outmoded.

America exported its business culture and management knowhow, in the productivity councils it helped establish in Europe before and during the Marshall plan, in the transplanting of its management school culture abroad, e. g., the reform of France’s schools of commerce in the 1960s and 1970 (under the auspicious of FNEGE, the French foundation for management education), the establishment of business schools in London and Manchester that were quickly replicated in other UK venues, the work of foundation that spread the ethos of American management culture in place like or similar to the European Institute for Advanced Studies in Management, Brussels.

After 1980 two events occurred that ended the reign of convergence management studies on the US model.   One was what I called the Collapse of the American Management Mystique that accompanied the downfall of US mass production industries (steel, rubber, electronic, automobile, etc) successfully supplanted by new Japanese firms in the 1980s and 1990s and, paradoxically perhaps, the second event, the reassertion of American entrepreneurial prowess during the digital revolution in high tech economic development clusters, a la Silicon Valley networks, which nation states that did not want to be left behind, wished to emulate.

Comparative analysis of national and regional development returned amid this general concern about competitiveness of nations.  See for examples Hofstede, d’Iribarne, Locke 1977, 1984, 1989, 1999, Locke & Schöne 2004, Johnson,  Johnson & Bröms, Deming, Saxenian, Lee et al, and the numerous citations about national and regional work cultures given in these books and others that could be listed.

Physico-mathematical economists ignore this literature and, therefore, make little contribution to the discussion about national or regional competitive advantages.  Real world economists, although keen about describing the prescriptive deficiencies of physico-mathematical economics, neglect the literature as well, even though it would behoove them not to do so, since comparative work culture analysis  should be at the heart of the critique of neoliberal, financialized US capitalism. (Locke 2014)

H Thomas Johnson, made this clear when he described the work culture introduced into firms as a result of the neoclassical educational takeover of business school education.

“[B]y the 1970s managers came primarily from the ranks of accountants and controllers, rather than from the ranks of engineers, designers, and marketers. [This new managerial class] moved frequently among companies without regard to the industry or markets they served.… A synergistic relationship developed between the management accounting taught in MBA programs and the practices emanating from corporate controllers’ offices, imparting to management accounting a life of its own and shaping the way managers ran businesses.” (Johnson and Bröms, 2000, 57)

Johnson despised these lifeless pyramidal structures imposed on work processes and managed by computer-oriented-production-control experts:

“At first the abstract information compiled and transmitted by these computer systems merely supplemented the perspectives of managers who were already familiar with concrete details of the operations they managed, no matter how complicated and confused those operations became. Such individuals, prevalent in top management ranks before 1970 had a clear sense of the difference between ‘the map’ created by abstract computer calculations and ‘the territory’ that people inhabited in the workplace. Increasingly after 1970, however, managers lacking in shop floor experience or in engineering training, often trained in graduate business schools, came to dominate American and European manufacturing establishments. In their hands the ‘map was the territory’. “

In other words, the study of comparative management cultures enables economists to understand the role their educational culture, the result of neoclassical takeover of management schools, played in the decline of US manufacturing by comparing it, as Johnson and others have done, with the work culture specifically of the Toyota Kata, and generally with Japanese, German, and other systems.

Comparative analysis also permits students of economics to comprehend  how the finance education neoclassically trained economists developed post WWII in business schools and in which they are ensconced turned the entrepreneurial networking of high tech development  clusters into a culture of billionaires, thereby illustrating how mental capital creation through education can degrade rather than improve the competitiveness of a nation. (Locke 2014)

 

Daastøl, A. M. (2014).  Friedrich List’s Heart, Wit, and Will:  Mental Capital as the Productive Forces of Progress.  Dissertation Erfurt University. Staatswissenschaftliche Faculty.  Document 24133.  Doctorate awarded 29 Nov. 2011.)

Deming, W. E. (1982).  Quality, Productivity, and Competitive Position.  Boston:  MIT CAES.

Deming, W. E. (1986) Out of the Crises. MIT, CAES.

Fullbrook, Edward (2006). “Economics and Neo-Liberialism,”   After Blair: Politics After the New Labour Decade, editor Gerry Hassan. Lawrence & Wishart.

Hofstede, Geert (1980). Cultures Consequences: International Differences in Work Related Values. London: Sage Publications.

Iribarne, P d’ (1989). La logique de l’honneur: Gestion des enterprises et traditions nationals. Paris: Editions du Seuil.

Johnson, H. T. (ed.). (1992).  Relevance Regained:  From Top-Down Control to Bottom-Up Empowerment. New York:  Free Press.

___________________(2013).  “ Management 410: The Rise of managerialism and the decline of responsible management in American business since 1945.” Course Syllabus, reproduced in R. R. Locke, “Reassessing the basis of corporate business performance.” Real World Economics Review.  Issue 64, 110-124, Annex, 120-24.

Johnson, H. T. and A. Bröms (2000). Profit Beyond Measure:  Extraordinary Results through Attention to Process and People.  Boston:  Nicolas Breakley Publishing.

Khurana, R.  (2007). From Higher Aims to Hired Hands: The Social Transformation of American Business Schools and the Unfulfilled Promise of Management as a Profession. Princeton, NJ: PUP.

Lee, C.-M, W. Miller, M. Gong-Hancock, and S. Rowan (eds) (2000).  The Silicon Valley Edge:  A Habitat for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, Stanford:  Stanford University Press.

Levi-Faur, D. (1997). “Friedrich List and the political economy of the nation-state.”  Review of

International Political Economy 4:1 Spring. 154–178. 

Locke, R (1977) “Industrialisierung und Erziehungssystem in Frankreich und Deutschland vor dem 1. Weltkrieg,” Historische Zeitschrift, 225, 265-96.

_______(1984). The End of the Practical Man. JAI Press.  Republished in 2006.

_______(1989). Management and Higher Education Since 1940. Cambridge  University Press.

_______(1996). The Collapse of the American Management Mystique. Oxford University Press.

_______(2012) “Reassessing economics: from Adam Smith to Carl von Clausewitz,”  rwer, 61, 100-14.

_______(2013) “Reassessing the basis of corporate business performance, rwer, 68, 2 July, 110-24.

______(2014) “Financialization, income distribution and social justice: Recent German and American experience, rwer, 68. 74-89.

______ and K Schöne (2004), The Entrepreneurial Shift, Cambridge University Press.

Saxenian, A  (1994).  Regional Advantages.  Cambridge, Mass.:  Harvard University Press.

  1. Alan
    September 24, 2017 at 7:32 pm

    “…differs fundamentally from Smith and his disciples who concentrated on the individual actor competing in the market place.”

    I don’t think that’s a true characterization of Smith, although it might be of some of his supposed followers. In Wealth the whole point is that the market exists in an institutional context of laws, regulations, etc. and that the institutional context is often fixed by merchants and government to the detriment of the greater social good.

  2. September 24, 2017 at 10:52 pm

    This is an exceptionally helpful post, thank you, Locke.

    “As they took over, the neoclassical economists eliminated institutionalist from the club … .” I testify to that intentional act of intellectual hubris. As a graduate student at Berkeley I witnessed many times conversations among faculty and students about how useless and irrelevant institutional economics was. Mathematical neoclassical economics already dominated the place. It was left to a marginalized, although tenured, labor economist to keep such as Veblen and Commons in the reading lists. Neither of these was ever mentioned in my undergrad classes, except in the required (then) History of Economic Thought. Economic History also was required then, but only American Economic History. Nothing pertaining to global economics was required. And now, neither history course is required there.

    Perhaps the worldwide revolt against neoclassical can turn this around. I hope so for the sake of future generations.

  3. September 26, 2017 at 4:15 am

    We need more along these lines. But there is a long way to go.

    As we all tell each other “von C said ‘war is the continuation of politics by other means'”. It is taking us forever to rephrase this for our own time as ‘economics is the continuation of politics by other means’. Mirowski is getting there with: Mirowski, P. 2009. ‘Postface: Defining Neoliberalism.’ In P. Mirowski & D. Plehwe (Eds.) The Road from Mont Pèlerin: The Making of the Neoliberal thought Collective: 417-55. Cambridge MA: Harvard University Press.

    The history of economics – since Aristotle – is of the attempts to justify (with ‘economic theory’) the political hegemony of the day. Predictive science? Bah!

    • Blissex
      September 27, 2017 at 8:32 pm

      «rephrase this for our own time as ‘economics is the continuation of politics by other means’.»

      My guess is that ultimately Economics is the continuation of theology by other means, because underneath the various “neoliberal” Economics variants there is always an implicit social darwinism, which is a theological position. JM Keynes wrote once that:

      «Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist

      To this I would add that those “defunct economists” were usually themselves the slaves of some simple-minded theologian. My impression is that most doctrines of Economics can be easily connected to a half-misunderstood salvation theory of some long defunct theologian.

      • September 27, 2017 at 10:09 pm

        Well, yes. Everything goes back to one’s deepest beliefs – a truism and tautology to boot. Which theology do you have in mind?

        My point is that OUR economics is about OUR politics, a practical matter, and OUR politics is less about religion than in times past (perhaps).

        OUR economics is about the scarcity of private property, very Lockean (John not Bob), and property has religious connotations.

        But to argue ‘economics is the continuation of politics by other means’ is actually more about denying it is a ‘quasi-natural science’ than suggesting we know what ‘politics’ is. Whatever it is, it obviously has theological bases.

      • September 28, 2017 at 4:06 pm

        Well, no. Unless you count self-centred Humean atheism as theology instead of anti-theology, and his doctrines of scientific, moral and political method as a salvation theory. As Adam Smith was Hume’s student, the latter interpretation does have historical warrant.

  4. Geoff Davies
    September 26, 2017 at 4:27 am

    Thanks Robert, this is educational for an outsider like me, and I’ll be following up some of the references.

  5. September 26, 2017 at 10:28 am

    Robert, I come at these issues from the other end. Academics didn’t create capitalism or neoliberalism. These were created by people who are rich, want to remain rich, or want any rules as ineffective as possible so they can do whatever (and I mean whatever) is necessary to become rich. Reading the descriptions of 19th century capitalism in the US and UK, it’s difficult to reach any other conclusion. The push back to this savage way of life for humans has at times mitigated some of the more severe consequences, but only in part and only temporarily. Once capitalism took hold in the west human life became a kill-or-be-killed war of all against all. With the wealthy carefully carving out safe and lucrative places for themselves and their helpers. Reading historical (historians, sociologists, anthropologists) descriptions of ways of life for humans in the western world since1800 it’s difficult to reach any other conclusion.

    Capitalism may have begun in the UK but it was standardized and sent round the world by American ingenuity and spirit. As early as the 1840’s, Abbott Lawrence, a rising Yankee cotton manufacturer, wrote to a competitor: “If you are troubled with the belief that I am growing too rich, there is one thing that you may as well understand: I know how to make money, and you cannot prevent it.” At about the same time, the young Philadelphia financier, Jay Cooke, was writing his parents in Ohio: “Through all the grades I see the same all-pervading, all-engrossing anxiety to grow rich. This is the only thing for which men live here.” During the Civil War, inducements to enterprise had become greater than ever before, and the “materialist frame of mind” had grown more pronounced. “Such opportunities for making money,” wrote Judge Thomas MelIon of Pittsburgh in 1863, “had never existed before in all my former experience.” By 1870, a spectacular business boom was under way in the North, which ultimately overwhelmed the old morality, the religious spirit that had flourished under it, and the humanitarian impulses that this spirit had nourished. The vogue of Herbert Spencer in succeeding decades made the triumph of acquisitiveness complete. Spencer, an Englishman wrote a long series of books beginning in the 1860’s to show how the Darwinian theory of evolution in nature also worked in the evolution or “progress” of society. Spencer took Darwin’s botanical and biological demonstrations and transferred them to the social sphere. For the “Social Darwinists” who became his disciples, the Darwinian “struggle for existence” was represented by business competition, “natural selection” became laissez faire, and the “survival of the fittest” was demonstrated by the way giant business creations like John D. Rockefeller’s oil “trust” swallowed up many smaller, weaker competitors in their rise to the top. The progress of society demanded that these complex industrial organisms be left entirely to their “natural” bent. The disruptors and innovators of modern business education have their origin in these notions of Spencer. Andrew Carnegie, American steel magnate said this on his first reading of Spencer, “Light came as in a flood and all was clear.” John D. Rockefeller, Jr., following Spencer said this about the natural laws Spencer reveals. “The growth of a large business is merely a survival of the fittest. … The American Beauty rose can be produced in the splendor and fragrance which bring cheer to its beholder only by sacrificing the early buds which grow up around it. This is not an evil tendency in business. It is merely the working-out of a law of nature and a law of God.” Spencer also reconciled his version of Darwinism with American religion, creating the unique version of conservatism still with us today. Insight into today’s evangelical Christianity are found in this 1867 statement by Henry Ward Beecher of Plymouth Church in Brooklyn, saying he found “arising in the studies in Natural Science [Social Darwinism] a surer foothold for [his evangelical] views than they ever had.”

    Spence died in 1903. Just as it was becoming clear how very mistaken are his views of Darwin’s theory. But he and his disciples had already set the character for 20th and 21st century capitalism. But more than this the Social Darwinists retroactively connected economists from Adam Smith onward to Social Darwinian capitalism, and then connected the combination to the natural world. In this way Social Darwinists legitimated and made unproblematic what today is regarded as neoliberalism. And economists went along for the ride. They rode the wave of materialism and greed right to the top. The top academic positions, the top government positions, the top journals, high salaries and prestige, and freedom from uncertainty and poverty offered only to the elites, per Social Darwinism. In return they had only to show full and unwavering allegiance to Social Darwinian capitalism and the businesspersons and corporations who inhabit it. Most economists have fulfilled this pledge.

    More practically, the industrialization of the US depended on four supportive policies that constituted the ‘standard model’ for economic development in the 19th century. The first was mass education. Great strides in this direction had been taken in the colonial period and extended in the 19th century, and were increasingly guided by economic motives. Alexander Hamilton proposed the other three policies in his Report on Manufactures (1792). These consisted of transportation improvements to expand the market, a national bank to stabilize the currency and insure a supply of credit, and a tariff to protect industry. Without the tariff, the southern and western purchases of manufactures would not have led to US industrialization since Britain would have satisfied the demand, as it did in the colonial period. Henry Clay, a US senator, dubbed Hamilton’s proposals ‘the American system’, but they were applied by many countries after Friedrich List popularized them. This included France and Germany. By 1850 the US had developed the capacity to create rising productivity through its own efforts, and had moved beyond on such staples as cotton and sugar. The US, along with the UK and the Netherlands were among the few nations that consistently created high-productivity, capital-intensive technologies in the 19th and 20th centuries.

    Alexander Hamilton (Constitution Society): Report on Manufactures (1792)
    Georg Friedrich List: The National System of Political Economy (1841)
    Spencer, Herbert: The Man versus the State (1885 ed.)
    __The Man versus the State, with Six Essays on Government, Society and Freedom (LF ed.)
    __Introduction: A Plea for Liberty: An Argument against Socialism and Socialistic Legislation (LF ed.)
    __Introduction: A Plea for Liberty: An Argument against Socialism and Socialistic Legislation (1891 ed.)
    __Political Institutions, being Part V of the Principles of Sociology
    __The Principles of Ethics, 2 vols. (1879) (LF ed.)
    __The Principles of Ethics, vol. 1 (LF ed.)
    __The Principles of Ethics, vol. 2 (LF ed.)
    __The Principles of Psychology (1855)
    __The Principles of Sociology, 3 vols. (1898)
    __The Principles of Sociology, vol. 1 (1898)
    __The Principles of Sociology, vol. 2 (1898)
    __The Principles of Sociology, vol. 3 (1898)
    __Social Statics (1851)
    __The Study of Sociology (1873)

    • robert locke
      September 26, 2017 at 11:47 am

      You only present one hegemonic Anglo-Saxon system here, which denies the rest of the world any say in its fate. I learned about how another cultures looked at industrialization when I studied German history. Then, when I was asked to teach World Civilizations, at the University of Hawaii, I had Japanologists, Sinologists, and other nonwestern oriented people, my colleagues, to lean on for information. I never learned so much as I did from my conversations with my American Masters student, who had taught for several years in Japan’s primary school system, and spoke knowledgeably about how it differed from American, and I remember how one Japanese scholar reacted to Chandler’s convergence theory on corporate management: he didn’t argue with the great man, but told me in an aside that Chandler’s ideas about management hierarchies didn’t have much to do with corporate culture in Japan, I put these insights into a chapter on Germany and on Japan, in my book The Collapse of the American Management Mystique. When I held the Esso Chair at the European Institute for Advanced Studies in Management (1982-84), I discovered that it was a completely American dominated place. I had already studied German management, and knew about how it was institutionalized in training and education systems, but nobody at the EIASM had any interest in hearing about it. People who live outside anglosaxonia do not share its values and are not incapable, witness the transformation of East Asia. That is what makes comparative study so interesting and difficult, but important.

      • September 26, 2017 at 12:35 pm

        Robert, you are correct, of course. But till recently the hegemonic I describe is the only one that counted in the world. And even today the others still struggle to not be absorbed by it.

      • robert locke
        September 26, 2017 at 1:53 pm

        Some of this is simply the result of history. I don’t know if the German griff nach der Weltmacht had any chance of being successful, certainly its attempt to dominate Europe did, but the intervention of extraEuropean powers, through the folly of the Germans themselves, certainly proved that they lacked the resources materially and demographically for such a world enterprise. If Germany hadn’t lost the first world war, the story might have been different, that is German thought might have continued to exert its influence in the 20th century. When I looked at the development of German business economics, I discovered that Japanese, Scandinavians, Italians, Spaniards and others went to German Handelshochschulen up to 1940. There was another management educational model. WWII changed all of that, not in Germany where BWL traditions persisted, but in that the rest of the world now turned to the victorious American model.

      • September 27, 2017 at 6:53 am

        Robert, excellent points. If Germany had won, or at least not lost WWI the world today would likely be very different. What if Germany had been an equal partner in creating modern Europe, with no National Socialism, and Europe strong enough to resist subjugation by the US. Social Darwinian capitalism might had never become master of the world. Germany has another chance right now, and it’s squandering the opportunity.

      • Blissex
        September 27, 2017 at 8:55 pm

        «I discovered that Japanese, Scandinavians, Italians, Spaniards and others went to German Handelshochschulen up to 1940.»

        And viceversa! Italian business thinking and research in political economy also had an enormous influence across Europe, and so did french and british thought.

        «Social Darwinian capitalism might had never become master of the world»

        It is master of the “atlantic” academic world because of the exceptional material rewards that pertain only to its academic supporters. And it was not really created by H Spencer, even if the latter popularized it. Social darwinism, applied to the political economy, is largely a version of malthusianism, and writers like the anglo-dutch B de Mandeville (and to some extent the venetian G Ortes) in the 17th and 18th century.

      • September 27, 2017 at 10:17 pm

        These days we are, thank goodness, learning ever more about the project to develop, articulate, and broadcast the post-WW2 American view.

        Personally I think we vastly underestimate the impact Arrow’s Impossibility Theorem had on this project. I suspect it was the ‘razor’ that separated American political thinking from the post-WW2 European thinking – as it led onto ‘neoliberalism’.

    • September 27, 2017 at 2:33 am

      “Academics didn’t create capitalism or neoliberalism.”
      i accept this. however, they more than anyone, especially the neoclassical economists, have provided the clothes to give raw predatory capitalism its image of civilization, even to the point of arguing that capitalism fosters democracy (i hold that it is contrary).
      and neoclassical still is providing the clothes for the emperor, even some of my favorite current economists seem to be trying to save capitalism from itself.

      • September 27, 2017 at 7:22 am

        Econoclast, if you’ll check a bit further along in my last comment you’ll see that you and I agree about whore economists protecting savage capitalism with all sorts of veneers. Depicting such capitalism as nurturing or protecting democracy, and making civilization possible are just two of these. My favorite is that capitalism is necessary for economic and social equality. Capitalism is a rabid dog. One does not negotiate with a rabid dog. One kills it to protect the common good. It’s time to kill capitalism.

      • September 27, 2017 at 3:06 pm

        Well put, Econoclast. Ken too, in respect of his conclusion, though I think David Ruccio’s “Break this” is more apt than “kill”: which conjures up visions of killing capitalists rather than pensioning off “whore” academics. Robert’s history of science and economics, in my opinion, does not go back far enough, i.e. to the dominance of Catholicism (for everyone) highlighting heterodoxy and our familiar problem of suppression by “peer review” or “inquisition”, to the capture the moral breakdown following a period of technical advances, seemingly sparked by papal success in raising money to build the magnificent St Peter’s cathedral in Rome. It advanced c.1450 from collecting Peter’s Pence from the poor to selling indulgences to the rich:
        rather than encouraging the rich to pay the poor better wages so they could contribute more pence! In the aftermath of that, Bacon (1604) proposed the empirical reconstitution of science “for the glory of God and the relief of Man’s estate”, and following the privatisation of British government after the “Glorious Revolution” of 1688, the “whore” academic who replaced this science and Christian ethics (the advice of a loving Father) with agreement between scientists and/or rulers was – as I keep saying – David Hume (1740), whose views of science and morality have come down to economics via his student Adam Smith. What amounts to the moral consensus of self-serving rulers is being portrayed to us (even today) as the consensus of disinterested scientists, which of course it isn’t.

  6. September 27, 2017 at 4:41 pm

    All of which discussion reminds how we unknowingly inherit the ideas of dead economists, as Keynes Junior noted. Since we have been taught to ignore history we are constantly surprised by realizing anew what every well-read person knew in – for instance – Hume’s time.

    Last weekend I happened to read Locke’s Second Treatise (don’t ask). Not having read it before, I was stunned by how it hinges on the notion of ‘property’ and thus why it so appealed to the Founding Fathers. It underpins America’s sense of itself and of US capitalism (recalling Coolidge’s famous 1925 comment).

    More interesting is how it does NOT illuminate European (or other continents’) ideas of capitalism – and thus the points raised by earlier posts. And so to Robert’s original complaint that the AngloSaxonian view has become a hegemon that crushes our inquiry into management (and capitalism also).

    From my point of view I cannot see significant progress towards understanding business and managing in our ‘democratic capitalism’ so long as we lack a viable ‘theory of the firm’ (i.e. Coase 1937, another dead economist). But that’s my shtick … Not many seem interested. It does seem crucial to begin by assuming pluralism, that different cultures and histories lead to different ‘capitalisms’. Do we really think the Anglosaxionian model – finessed Chicago-wise –
    useful for understanding what went on in colonial Gabon, 17th-century Goa, or today in Shenzhen?

    • robert locke
      September 28, 2017 at 9:55 am

      “It does seem crucial to begin by assuming pluralism, that different cultures and histories lead to different ‘capitalisms’”

      That is an important point in my post. A lot of people criticize North American Economics these days but there is an absence of discussion about viable alternatives. Geoffrey Jones and colleagues in business history at the Harvard Business School are trying to develop studies in business history in emerging economies, which is a step forward in pluralism if properly done. Really stepping into other cultures requires lot of learning and linguistic skills and collaboration.

      • Geoffrey
        September 30, 2017 at 11:47 am

        Thanks for mentioning the work of the Business History Initiative at Harvard Business School. Indeed I and my colleagues have a new stream of articles coming out in management journals like Strategic Management Journal and history journals like Business History Review focused on thinking conceptually about the business history of emerging markets. In some cases we draw on a unique oral history project we have pursued over the last decade called Creating Emerging Markets which does in-depth interviews with business leaders active in Africa, Asia and Latin America over the last four decades.We interview in English and (as appropriate) local languages including Mandarin, Spanish, Tamil, and Turkish. We also co-author with regional specialists and organize conferences in the regions. We had two big conferences in Mumbai in the last eight months, for example. One of our two big MBA elective business history courses at HBS is entirely global and comparative. There is nothing on the domestic business history of the United States, but students learn a great deal about Latin America, Africa and Asia. Our lens on US corporations is primarily on their international strategies: we have cases on IBM in Nazi Germany and United Fruit’s role in the CIA’s overthrow of the Guatemalan government in 1954, for example. Our research seminar series this fall, where Chandler presented all the first drafts of his iconic books decades ago, kicked off last week with a paper comparing the diaspora from regions of China and India. We have no papers al all this year on the United States or Europe. So we are indeed hard at work, and quite advanced, on plurality.

      • robert locke
        October 1, 2017 at 7:09 pm

        If I weren’t 86 next February, I’d enroll in those research seminars, provided,,, if course, that I could get in.

      • spender7
        October 1, 2017 at 7:45 pm

        For credit? At our bigoted old age (dotage?) exams are not fun even if the course is absolutely super. Right now I am doing courses in the underpinnings of liberalism – Hobbes, Locke, Spinoza, Rousseau. Stunningly eye-opening stuff that I had never read carefully before.

    • September 28, 2017 at 1:04 pm

      I’ve been interviewing Antifa activists over the last 4 months, so that will likely affect some of what I write here. On the role of the Catholic Church yesterday and today, it is certainly correct the containment and control tactics of the Church created consequences still affecting the world today. That’s one of the reasons the doctrines of Social Darwinism held and even today still hold noticeable influence over Christians both Protestant and Catholic. But we should not forget that the monotheistic religions are a great experiment in homo Sapiens’ culture. Their future remains uncertain. They may continue, collapse, or be replaced. So, their historical consequences may fade away. The earliest monotheistic religions (e.g., Zoroastrianism) were both subtler and more complex than Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and more flexible. The list of unchristian actions and beliefs of supposedly Christian institutions are nearly endless. This is all consistent with Hume’s view, when he argues that the monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam derive from earlier polytheistic religions. But ultimately according to Hume all religious belief “traces to dread of the unknown.” Not aware of any efforts to work out this history. Hume wrote about several ideas that influenced the subsequent social science called economics – including private property, inflation, and foreign trade. Most relevant here is that Hume is credited with laying the foundations of social science. For Hume such science is “naturalistic,” looking to establish the “facts” of human culture and history from within that very culture and history. Opposing rationalism, Hume asserted that passion rather than reason directs human performance and that all human understanding is ultimately based solely in experience. Genuine knowledge (science) is thus either directly traceable to objects from experience, or from abstractions about relations between ideas which are derived from experience. But here Hume is not so much incorrect as naively simplistic. Humans co-construct their experiences, along with the many other human and nonhuman actors with whom they interact. So, experience is not just “there” for humans. Humans and the other actors create it to be “there.” This same oversimplification came down to modern science which accepted it without question. It should have been questioned. Experience is problematic, always. Since multiple non-Anglo social scientists and philosophers figured this out, it seems obvious it’s a shortcoming more affecting the Anglo world than Europe and Asia. But in view of how fully Anglo ideas and ways of life have dominated the world over the last 200 years, it’s my view it’s a world problem.

      Consistent with this more nuanced view of experience and of Hume, and with the basics that all historians recognize, I agree with JC Spender that it’s essential to begin with pluralism, “that different cultures and histories lead to different ‘capitalisms’.” We don’t have much choice here, since it is we and our fellow human and nonhuman actors that are the inventors of not just multiple capitalisms, but multiple economies in general.

  7. September 28, 2017 at 5:17 pm

    I love the below passage, Robert, as it captures, quite nicely, my criticism of the business schools. They, more than anyone else, had a mandate to continue questioning the status quo, to challenge the absurd idea that there “was only one model.” And they whiffed.

    “As they took over, the neoclassical economists eliminated institutionalist from the club, meaning in this context that they got rid of the economists whose work fostered comparative work on national systems. Their disappearance did not matter much during the three decades after the war, for in the capitalist world there was only one model, the American; few questioned its superiority. Alfred D Chandler Jr. who won a Pulitzer Prize in history (1977) for his studies about the rise of the Visible Hand of US corporate management believed that countries that did not follow the American way would become hopelessly outmoded.”

  8. September 28, 2017 at 5:49 pm

    “Furphy” [notes Steve Keen] is a delightful Australian word meaning “an irrelevant or minor issue raised to specifically divert attention away from the real issue”. It deserves wider currency – especially amongst economists!” Not that my typos help comprehension either [c.f. undeleted word ‘capture’, for which apologies].

    Nor did I make what now seems to me a vital point in my argument: that differences between people have been around a lot longer than those in religious forms and economic institutions. It is not so much Christians or whatever not getting things right, as literal-minded people tending to take literally what is intended to be thought-provoking, like a Father God threatening his inconsiderate kids with hell fire! It seems to me that literalism was the problem let loose by the invention of printing and widespread publication of translations of the Bible. As for Hume, let me say I’ve been trying to to be fair to him for sixty years, and am hopefully archived somewhere saying his view of Christianity in the midst of bloody conflicts between Anglicans and Presbyterian covenanters, agreed only on their rejection of a domestic Catholicism they no longer had experience of, was understandable. “A plague on all their houses” must have seemed reasonable enough. My point is, Christians are just people, but Christianity is a call for them to be reasonable, not least by examining their consciences.

    Actually, Ken, I don’t really disagree with your interpretation of “peer review”. Your reading of Hume as “naively simplistic” seems to me a good working hypothesis: back in his time even science was naively simplistic in light of subsequent discoveries. On a pluralist view of capitalism I prefer the interpretation that capitalism is a single concept which different people interpret and thus apply differently: not only emphasising what suits their own purpose or becoming aware of and adding missing bits (c.f. Keynes), but causing it to evolve into something other than economics (notably chrematics) by making mistakes and falsifying the evidence.

  9. robert locke
    September 28, 2017 at 9:02 pm

    I use to think that capitalism was a single concept, too, until I made a strong forray into the world of German business economics, where I discovered it was not true. Take the word “efficiency” (Wirschaftlichkeit). German business economics discussed the idea in detail in the 1920s. For people who had a proprietary concept of the firm and believed that it was a money mill, efficiency meant maxiimizing return on investment. That is a anglosaxonian view. But if you conceive of the firm as an organic entity, in which several interested stakeholders are involved, capitalists, employees, customers, then the idea of “efficiency” is different, an efficient firm is one that serves all stakeholders. This idea of the capitalist firm as a Gemeinschaft, a community, was an essential part of discussion about the private firm among these German business economists. It effected a whole range of topics, about firm sustainability and purpose that were very different from what one finds in financialized US capitalism.

    • September 29, 2017 at 7:03 am

      The difficulty, Bob, is that if we use the same word for different things we simply talk at cross-purposes. What capitalism is is what it does, which is not to refer to an economy but to a system concept which (insofar as it is understood correctly) can be applied to economies. If you don’t fully understand (or misinterpret what is going on in) the system, then at least in the system concept itself one has a basis for discussing that. The system concept, I suggest, is like the grammar of a foreign language or the key to an encrypted message; insofar as one gets it nearly right then most of the message may become intelligible (though as in a photo negative or the shadows in Plato’s cave, simple inversion may ensure that most of it will not). Of course I entirely agree with you about firms as communities; for many years I’ve seen them as local government communities defined by shared commercial interests rather than sharing tempero-spatial localities. The Catholic church has local parishes, but it also has specialist communities like the Benedictines, Friars, Jesuits and other practical/intellectual teaching, care and health care orders.

      • robert locke
        September 29, 2017 at 8:06 am

        In my reference Dave, there are two systems concepts, in conflict with each with, one model for political reasons preeminent and, as Ken says, ‘the others still struggle to not be absorbed by it.” As an example of the American managerialist takeover of a stakeholder managed German firm, and the fallout, one can read two accounts of what happened to a giant German chemical firm, Hoechst, when one system, the American, took it over (one has to read German).

        One account by Simon Grand & Daniel Bartl,” speaks the approving voice of financial takeover capitalism, Executive Management in der Praxis: Entwicklung, Durchsetzung, Andwendung, Campus Verlag 2011.

        The other account: Christoph Wehnelt, Hoechst: Untergangs des deutschen Weltkonzerns (Lindenberg: Kunstverlag Joseph Fink, 2010) presents the story from the viewpoint of the stakeholder management system that was hijacked by the Americans. Wehnelt book’s shows that Hoechst was a solid firm, but open to takeover by those who saw prospects for great rewards for executive managers in the U S finance takeover capitalist mode, at the expense of the Hoechst stakeholder community.

    • Blissex
      September 29, 2017 at 8:42 am

      «capitalism was a single concept»

      The word “capitalism” is a very overused one for too many meanings; strictly speaking in the “first-world” capitalism existed in the 19th century, and no longer exists, because it is properly defined as the political system in which the owners of the means of production have paramount political power.

      A lot of people also use “capitalism” to mean something of quite different nature, the “industrial mode of production”. The “first-world” economies are still based on the industrial mode of production, mostly services rather than manufactures as in the past, but different political systems have evolved from “capitalism” around the industrial mode of production.

      Indeed different political systems are compatible with the industrial mode of production, in which different groups have paramount political power. Currently in most anglo-american countries the political system is financial leverage capitalism, in which those groups who make money from financial leverage have paramount political power (e.g. Wall Street and small house speculators); in Germany paramount political power goes to a somewhat corporatist coalition of business owners and skilled workers, maybe it can be called “socialdemocrat capitalism”.

    • September 29, 2017 at 11:21 am

      Just been watching Newsnight here, Bob, with American Professor Wolff seeing the argument going your way on cooperative management structure, and saying of socialism what I’ve been saying of capitalism: that it has evolved since Marx’s time. On the “two systems concepts”, I would agree that a “balance of power” system concept is not the same as a “PID information feedback” system concept; the question is, which one was “Capitalism” intended to refer to? Locke’s “balance of power” was around at the time it first started, but I don’t think that was what Adam Smith (or even Hume with his representative democracy) had in mind, though as
      Marx saw, class war was how it was interpreted in practice. If Hume’s ideas on democracy in geographical government had been applied to corporate government, perhaps your cooperative management would have been the natural outcome. Indeed with rational military strategists like Clausewitz and List instead of muddled empiricists like Malthus and J S Mill, perhaps in the united Germany it was. The Catholic church had its own economic problems following annexation of its estates during the unification of Italy, but by 1890 it had become aware of the problem and largely went back to subsidiarity (local decision making) and mutual solidarity in cooperative communities, as practised and theorised in the early church (Acts 4:32-5; I Cor 12:4-27; see Race Mathews, “Jobs of our own: building a stakeholder economy”, 1999, Pluto Press). Post-Hitler Catholics starting up the EEC had learned the need for this, but if one is relearning the lessons of pluralist democracy, it is perhaps worth looking again at the old Guild system, in which pricing was determined by agreement between producers morally committed to being fair, and thus not going to allow undercutting or profiteering. The problems arose with the beginning of mass production and international trading of wool. As another speaker on Newsnight pointed out, politicians are still thinking in terms of national policies, but globalisation of finance means the problems must be resolved internationally.

  10. September 29, 2017 at 11:12 am

    I believe it’s reasonable to consider that the various forms of capitalism share a common core. That core is, in my view this – invest money to make money. Even the Chinese have found it impossible to control the investors (in all forms) they created and set lose. So, the news is filled with stories about one Chinese billionaire or another disobeying or circumventing government instructions. Some have been punished (several were executed), but this has not stopped the speculative investing or the rush to increase profits. Another example is the debate going on now among academics (mostly environmental historians), and among investors and hedge funds over what’s called “green capitalism.” The issue: is it possible to create incentives (i.e., money profits) such that investors prefer investment in green energy and technology over non-green (e.g., fossil fuels, nuclear) technology and energy. This has been offered both by some conservative and some environmental groups as an alternative to government subsidies and regulations supporting green energy and technology. The results are, as anyone who’s not an ideologue would expect mixed. There are ways to design culture so that investors make money by choosing green over non-green investment options. But the designs sometimes fail. When they do, investments go to non-green. Then there’s the certainly oxymoronic “Swedish Capitalism.” Sweden has a long history of large corporations and successful capitalists, all embedded within a less then welcoming comprehensive welfare socioeconomic society. Which brings us back to the basic purpose of capitalism – invest money to make money. The question before us is this – if we allow capitalism to survive, can it be controlled so its benefits to society are greater than the harm it inflicts on society? Currently, the situation is more harm than benefit from capitalism. This is not a new issue. Humans have struggled since the agricultural revolution 12,000 years ago over balancing their cultural creations to favor human survival vs. enrichment of some humans at the expense of the human collective. Culture work is a matter of survival for humans. It’s important. The future we choose for capitalism is important for human survival.

    • robert locke
      September 30, 2017 at 9:23 am

      “I believe it’s reasonable to consider that the various forms of capitalism share a common core. That core is, in my view this – invest money to make money.”

      While studying German firms in the 1980s, I interviewed Peter Lawrence (1983) in Loughborough University to talk about his book Managers and Management in West Germany (1980). Lawrence and his group have been studying national systems of management for decades. In his book on Germany Lawrence wrote, (I write this in my 1989 book Management and Higher Education Since 1940, Cambridge UP) “that when the German manager is asked about the purpose of his enterprise, he never says that it is to make money. He will simply say that profit making is incidental to the greater purpose of the firm, which is to provide a greater service to its customers. Americans are usually skeptical about such pronouncements; they think the Americans are more honest when they admit their pecuniary desires. Whereas Lawrence observes, Americans believe ‘if you can pay you’re equal, Germans believe if you are able to perform (Leistung) you are equal.’ In both countries a man’s value is not determined by his origins, but the basis of judgment about individual worth is different. In Germany it is performance not money that matters. This belief, moreover, produces corollaries. One is the conviction in German firms that the product is the thing and that superior performance means superior products. The second is the idea of Technik, the combination of knowledge and knowhow necessary to make a product. Technik , Lawrence says, ‘is a force for integration. The German company is Technik in organizational form. The skilled worker, the foreman, the superintendent, the technical director are all participants in Technik. Of course, there are many things that they do not have in common, but Technik is something that transcends hierarchy.” (263-65)

      To invest money, to make money, cannot be a view that transcends hierachy, a unifying factor. It has created a system of business education designed to maximize ROI, and through financialization to enrich a few by asset speculation. Does this mean that a German company is not capitalist?

      • October 1, 2017 at 7:23 am

        Robert, the history you provide about German commerce and economy clarifies parts of why German capitalism would look and act differently from American capitalism. But why are investors around the world choosing to put their money into German companies? Here are some reasons. Germany is Europe’s largest economy and is the second largest exporter in the world after China. Germany accounts for about 20% of Europe’s GDP. In the machinery and equipment sector, there are about 6000 companies. It is not the industrial giants such as Siemens, Bayer, BASF that employ the most people in Germany. The thousands of small and medium-sized companies employ most workers. German companies lead the world in many industries such as automobile, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, and chemicals. From 1949 to date, Germany has enjoyed one of the lowest inflation rates in the world. Germany’s stock market dates to 1695 and is the 7th largest in the world in size. Its domestic bond market is the 5th largest in the world. In the last 110 years the real value of German equities, with dividends reinvested, grew by a factor of 25.2, omitting the World War II period when stocks fell by 88% in real terms. German companies are also among the leading players in some new industries such as the renewable energy and the Nano-technology. Among European countries, Germany tops in research and innovation. Many of these back your contention that for Germans, “the product is the thing and that superior performance means superior products.” That what matters most for German businesses is performance, not money. However, investors in these companies make that choice mostly to make money from their investment. So long as superior products from superior performance by the companies meets investor needs for profit, company and investors each get what they want. Companies continue with high standards and superior products. Investors continue to pour money into these companies. So, investing money to make money is the story with German companies, just like American ones. The results of the thought experiment of what happens to investments in Germany companies after the companies decide to be nonprofit supports this conclusion.

      • robert locke
        October 1, 2017 at 11:55 am

        Lawrence’s book on Managers and Management in West Germany appeared in 1980 when people in the UK had witnessed a collapse of manufacturing and American staples industries were on the verge of collapsing as well. People wanted to know why German manufacturing did not collapse, too. You cite the successes of German Mittelstand firms but you don’t say what gave them their competitive edge. Investors all over the world did not put much money into these Mittelstand firms, they were family owned, financed through reinvesting profits, and largely did their banking not in commercial banks, but local and regional nonnprofit Sparkasse. International investors try to suck German firms into their system of financialization and professional money management, but so far they have resisted this amalgamation pretty well. An example of where they didn’t in big industry is the buyout of Hoechst. But it is a close run thing, keeping investor capitalism at bay. It has had a field day in anglosaxonia. All those billionaires in Trumps cabinet benefitted exorbitantly from takeovers, IPO schemes, bankruptcies that eliminated legacy costs like pension schemes, and other aspects of husker capitalism. The production engineers and manufactuers who seriously sought to reform manufacturing culture (Association for Manufacturing Excellence, Deming societies) had great difficulties resisting the asset manipulation of investor capitalism.

      • October 2, 2017 at 4:26 am

        Robert, the press has been reporting a coming decline in Mittelstand firms for the last 15 years or so. Some firms are finding it difficult to get new loans while others are under pressure from aging owners and retirements. So, some may be lured into international financing. But even the Mittelstand firms have lasted as long as they have by “reinvesting profits.” So, these firms seek to make money, even if it’s for re-investment. They are thus capitalist. International investors will soon win this contest, as most of the Mittelstand open themselves to such investors. And, the larger firms in Germany are already in that situation.

      • Geoff Davies
        October 2, 2017 at 12:31 am

        Robert – Wow. “Mittelstand firms, they were family owned, financed through reinvesting profits, and largely did their banking not in commercial banks, but local and regional nonnprofit Sparkasse.”
        Glad to learn some have resisted the rot.

      • robert locke
        October 2, 2017 at 8:10 am

        “Most people now agree that “the amazing resilience of the German economy” can be attributed to its reliance on the small to medium size enterprises of Mittelstand companies: Seventy percent of Germans are employed by them in the private sector. Inasmuch as private and cooperative banks have financed these flourishing Mittelstand firms, judgments about these two pillars of German banking have changed from those of the pre-financial crisis era. Petra Dünhaupt notes that locally rooted banks “compared to private commercial banks,” performed well before and after the crises, (18) and that the modern view that “capital markets, in which banks are large, private, purely shareholder-oriented and exchange-listed corporations has been severely discredited by experience from the recent financial crisis.”
        The best business model, she writes, is “being firmly rooted in the local economy and aspiring to strike a balance between the need to make a profit and the aim of serving members and clients, and the appropriate institutional structure is being embedded in a decentralized and dense network of affiliated financial and non-financial institutions” (19). (Financialization, firm governances and social justice, rwer, 68 20140)

        Lawrence Mitchell wrote in his book The Speculation Economy: How Finance Triumphed Over Industry

        ‘A recent survey of more than four hundred chief financial officers of major American corporations revealed that almost eighty percent of them would have at least moderately mutilated their businesses in order to meet analysts’ quarterly profit estimates. Cutting the budgets for research and development, advertising and maintenance and delaying hiring and new projects are some of the long-term harms they would readily inflict on their corporations. Why? Because in modern American corporate capitalism the failure to meet quarterly numbers almost always guarantees a punishing hit to the corporation’s stock price. The stock price drop might cut executive compensation based on stock options, attract lawsuits, bring out angry institutional investors waving anti-management shareholder proposals and threaten executive job security if it happened often enough. Indeed, the 2006 turnover rate of 118 percent on the New York Stock Exchange alone justifies their fears. (Mitchell, 2007, 1)

  11. Geoff Davies
    September 29, 2017 at 1:15 pm

    As an outsider trying to figure out economics, I decided the word “capitalism” was so ill-defined and variably used as to not be useful. I assumed (not being the historian) it referred to capitalists accumulating capital (money) and re-investing it to make more money (as in Marx?).

    But there have been important variations of what I prefer to call market economies over the past 150 years or so. Social democracy moderated some of the excesses. Modern economies run on debt, not accumulated capital – so should they be called “debtism”? Older laissez-faire and modern financialised consumer economies are more destructive than some other versions. So it’s not useful to praise or condemn “capitalism”, one has to be more specific about which form of market and/or mixed economy one wants to discuss.

    So I think market incentives *could* be structured to produce results beneficial to the whole society (and environment) as Ken mentions. That’s what cap and trade schemes are supposed to do, for example. They haven’t worked because the special interests have subverted them. They did work for high-sulphur coal in the US I believe.

    Subsidies and taxes have been used pervasively and do affect what markets yield, but of course they have been used incoherently and often perversely so you don’t get a clean experiment. Nevertheless the principle of managing markets in this way is widely, if only implicitly, accepted.

    • October 1, 2017 at 7:16 am

      Debt is still just money, only future tense. So, capitalism is about increasing the amount of money one has or has access to, now and in the future. In whatever way possible. Remember the only difference between Exxon and the Genovese crime family is guns, and that is a difference only so long as Exxon chooses not to call “friends with guns.” The good capitalist is one that doesn’t lie all the time; that spends as much time giving away money as acquiring it; that accepts society is not their personal playground; that can feel modesty. In other words, most capitalists are sociopaths, it’s just a matter of degree. That’s what economists miss with all their theories and models. They miss the basics.

      So, the question for us regarding capitalism is how do we deal with capitalists, who are mostly sociopathic and a direct danger to society? No matter the specific definition we give capitalism, we must deal with this question. If we can’t control sociopaths, then we can’t control capitalism. So perhaps it’s better we send it away before it sends the species away.

      • Geoff Davies
        October 1, 2017 at 10:30 am

        Ken, Yes, debt is money and money is debt, but the key distinction I mean is between accumulating real wealth or resources from the past (retained earnings if you will) versus imposing a debt on the future (as when a “loan” is made of money created out of nothing).

        Do we save the deposit or do we just leave a debt for our children to pay?

        One of the problems of talking about “capitalists” is that many people defend them, and imagine capitalists are the only reason we got wealthy.

        I’d rather talk about the filthy rich, the one percent, and try to avoid at least some of that confusion. Not only have they illicitly siphoned much of our wealth into their own pockets, but they presume to govern us as well.

        So I still don’t find “capitalist” and “capitalism” to be useful terms. Much too loaded and confused.

      • October 2, 2017 at 4:33 am

        Geoff, debt and money, like all the “institutional” inventions that keep capitalism going are upheld by government. So, our kids have debt, must pay debt only if compelled to do so by government. I’d rather change the rules of government, so such obligations are subject to self-governed checks and balances. No more “iron law of debt repayment.” Capitalists of every sort must be answerable to democratic decision making and institutional control.

        It’s an evolutionary fact that about 4% of the population are sociopaths. During their hunter-gather past prior to 14,000 BCE homo Sapiens dealt with sociopaths by banishing them from the village/tribe. But with the invention of monarchical governing and then economic systems such as commercialism and capitalism sociopaths reversed the tables and banished the village/tribe. Society became a competitive struggle of all against all, a la Herbert Spencer. In this, sociopaths have the distinct advantage. So, you may find it more difficult to “not talk about capitalism and capitalists” than you imagine. After all, these are the situations in which sociopaths, capitalists, flourish.

  12. October 1, 2017 at 5:42 am

    Geoff on 29 Sep 17: I found your association of capitalism with “market incentives” very helpful. I associate it with control, so this reminded me of the “carrot and stick” method of driving a donkey, which capitalists are so wont to use. I can relate that to ‘economics’. Where I have difficulty is in relating it to ‘capitalism’. My mother’s dictionary was an etymological one, trying to suggest meanings from how they originated. As an apprentice scientist I once had the privilege of being an observer of scientists trying to chose an appropriate circuit symbol for transistor, when they were very new and how best to make them was still evolving. Our suggestion pictured our three-dimensional method of growing transistors; the one that prevailed pictured the American method, more like the later production method of printing them. The point here, I suggest, is that the reference to ‘capital’ is crucial. What the capitalist production method is about is mass enrichment by mass production, which requires mass facilities (i.e capital) and leads to land grabbing, enclosures, ownership laws and exploitation of natural resources. Money really only came into this when money as a measure of debts repaid by forfeiture of land and liberty was seen by the land lords as a measure of their wealth: an ambiguity exploited by the banks, as it enabled them to enrich themselves by printing IOUs and hiring them out as wealth.

    Robert on 30 Sep 17: “In Germany it is performance not money that matters. … Does this mean that a German company is not capitalist?”

    My initial reaction to this was “God speed your production-oriented view of the proper motivation of economics”, Bob. In other words, I go along with what you are saying. What I want to ask, then, is that the view of consumers, distributors and (for want of more inclusive words) carers and educators? It seems to me that these perspectives are equally valid, but not all at the same time: i.e. at different stages in one’s lifetime, for people at different stages of growing up. Money making as I see it is not economics, it is (to use Aristotle’s way of distinguishing it from household management) chrematism

    J C Spender on 26 Sep 17: “The history of economics – since Aristotle – is of the attempts to justify (with ‘economic theory’) the political hegemony of the day. Predictive science? Bah!”

    So at the time of Aristotle the “political hegemony of the day” lay with charismatic leaders of households in city states, as against the law-makers and enforcers in the Old Testament system. Economics in the Christendom era followed Aristotle rather than Old Testament traditions because the whole point of Christ’s life and death was to demonstrate that God was not an all-powerful tyrant laying down the law but a Father loving enough to lay down his life for his children, wanting all of them (not just the good ones, perhaps especially those who most needed it) to have a decent livelihood, and spelling out the problems to avoid in life in (as I put it) a spirit of Commendment rather than Commandment. It seems to me Calvinist Anglo-Saxon Capitalism has reverted to the spirit of the Old Testament, whereas the tradition of Lutheran or still Catholic Germany has kept alive the spirit of paternal responsibility, with the Father chairing rather than dominating discussions which, as the family grows up, are an essential part of the education of future generations. I totally agree, J.C., that is not about predictive science, but it is all about foresight: looking ahead to what’s happening slowly enough for us to be able to change our ways before it happens.

    Econoclast on 24 Sep 17: “This is an exceptionally helpful post, thank you, Locke.”

  13. Geoff Davies
    October 1, 2017 at 10:38 am

    Dave, re “mass enrichment by mass production”

    In the Basque country is a network of cooperatives – the Mondragon Corporation. It has a multi-billion dollar turnover, has modern enterprises of various kinds and is reportedly very efficient.

    So psychopathic greed is not the only path to bettering our lives, even if we only look at the base material aspects.

    And money is a centrally important dynamic driver of economies, because it connects the future to the present, as Keynes also recognised, and because it represents a debt and therefore involves risk. Money does not just measure.

    • October 1, 2017 at 12:56 pm

      Yes, Geoff, my comment above on 29th mentioned (Australian) Race Mathews book “Jobs of our own”, which ends up enthusatic about Mondragon. The title of the paper I presented at the Critical Realist conference in Sydney in 2003 was ‘From theorising to modelling: Mondragon co-operatives as economic “models” ‘. Abstract:

      “After introducing the author, his Information Science, Catholic and Critical Realist backgrounds, and his longstanding Catholic interest in Chestertonian Distributist economics, the discussion moves on to the difference between symbolic theory and visual models. It argues that the basic theory of economics is analogous to electrical theory, which is based on a readily visualisable topological circuit diagram form of mathematics. The two uses of electrical circuits – to distribute power and to convey information “piggy-backing” on power – suggest two different approaches to economic theorising. The ’power’ approach is briefly discussed with reference to the economics of the Catholic theologian Bernard Lonergan. The initial stages of the SSADM methodology, needed to explain the information system approach, are first explained via an analysis and extension of Bhaskar’s DREI(C) schema, then located as an instance of DREI(C). The economic circuit schema is then redrawn using SSADM symbolism to locate markets as the information system equivalent of cross-indexes. The implications of this for economic reform are sketched, then after a brief introduction to the successful Spanish Mondragon cooperative, this is shown to model the economic information system in miniature, even demonstrating the practicality of the theoretical reform criteria in local (distributed) economies.

      Since 2003 I’ve generalised the structural theory to take account of evolution, goods in the pipeline or storage and thus the central importance of money as a carrier of information in the coordination and timing of availability.

      Of course I realise the significance of money as a motivator, one problem being that the current dishonest representation of it motivates the wrong attitudes, the other being that few people take seriously any interpretation other than what they have become used to. It seems I’m not the only one here who has difficulty getting anything other than mainstream thinking published, though my work having been resolving problems rather than writing them up, I humbly concede my need for help in making it publishable.

    • October 2, 2017 at 10:22 am

      Coauthors Svetlana Kirdina and John HallIn presented a remarkable paper at the 2017 AEA meeting, “Probing Deeper Inside of Evolution: Competition and Struggle Versus Cooperation and Mutual Aid.” How many economists attended the session or understood what was said is impossible to say. But the paper destroys one of the foundations of capitalism and classical and neoclassical economics — that competition and struggle serve as the main variables initiating and driving natural selection and evolution. As well as innovation and economic improvement. In his foundational book “Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution” Kropotkin criticized Darwin’s emphasizing competition and the struggle for existence as a valid and universal law. In its place, he introduced the Law of Mutual Aid. Kropotkin supposed that mutual aid would be considered, not only as an argument in favor of a pre-human origin of moral instincts, but also as a Law of Nature and as a factor in social evolution. Kropotkin juxtaposed his understanding of mutual aid to individualism, arguing that:

      “… [t]he animal species, in which individual struggle has been reduced to its narrowest limits, and the practice of mutual aid has attained the greatest development, are invariably the most numerous, the most prosperous, and the most open to further progress.”

      It is Kropotkin’s view that when considering ethical progress, that indeed mutual aid–not mutual struggle plays the leading role. Kropotkin singles out mutual aid as the variable that would lead our societies to a “loftier evolution.” This question needs to be considered again today, considering the failure of economics and economists

  14. October 2, 2017 at 10:15 am

    Only away a couple of days and how this discussion has moved on! Going away for five now, and it has just clicked how I’m seeing capitalism as a form of economics and chrematics as a form of capitalism.

    Let me explain evolution as advances with the passage of time, so that if you were counting, the next symbol after 9 is not a symbol for ten ones but 10, reusing the old symbols but with a new meaning. Thus energy evolves into matter, matter into life, life into humans with language, language into the realisation of Ken’s mental constructs. Economics at this point in time is household management, the human form of animals rearing their young.

    But now consider economics as a process rather than a pattern. Instead of number forms progressing think of something more primitive than numbers: the position of sun or the hands of a clock sweeping out recognisable quarter-hours. Think of steering a moving ship in he first quarter of an hour, and how freedom to move in any direction depends on whether you are one the sea or confined by a river. Think of capability of correcting mistakes depending in the second quarter of an hour on having a landmark or compass to show you which way and how much you are wrong, but with it you can make corrections Proportional to the error. Think in the third quarter of an hour of the wind and tide having you taken you sufficiently off course for the build-up or Integral of this error to become mesurable so one can rest the course, and in the fourth quarter for one to [temporarily] take a Different course to avoid hazards which are becoming evident ahead. Thus the capability of sailing in any direction evolves from simply aiming to PID control as the successive feedbacks become available. The difficulty with the last of these is that if changes course to miss a hazard and fail to reset the course afterwards, one will miss the original target.

    So, economics is the human stage in the chain of evolution from energy thru matter and life. Capitalism has evolved by using pricing as the compass of corrective feedback. Chrematism is what we have now, as the monetary control mechanism has sought to avoid bankruptcy by aiming not at the diverse purposes of enterprise but at making money.

    On this basis there is only one meaning of Capitalism, but it is an evolving one, and if its control is taken too far it turns into Chrematism.

    TTFN.

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