Home > Uncategorized > The limits of probabilistic reasoning

The limits of probabilistic reasoning

from Lars Syll

Almost a hundred years after John Maynard Keynes wrote his seminal A Treatise on Probability (1921), it is still very difficult to find statistics books that seriously try to incorporate his far-reaching and incisive analysis of induction and evidential weight.

keynesreadingbookThe standard view in statistics — and the axiomatic probability theory underlying it — is to a large extent based on the rather simplistic idea that more is better. But as Keynes argues — more of the same is not what is important when making inductive inferences. It’s rather a question of “more but different.”

Variation, not replication, is at the core of induction. Finding that p(x|y) = p(x|y & w) doesn’t make w irrelevant. Knowing that the probability is unchanged when w is present gives p(x|y & w) another evidential weight. Running 10 replicative experiments do not make you as sure of your inductions as when running 10 000 varied experiments — even if the probability values happen to be the same.

According to Keynes we live in a world permeated by unmeasurable uncertainty — not quantifiable stochastic risk — which often forces us to make decisions based on anything but ‘rational expectations.’ Keynes rather thinks that we base our expectations on the confidence or ‘weight’ we put on different events and alternatives. To Keynes, expectations are a question of weighing probabilities by ‘degrees of belief,’ beliefs that often have preciously little to do with the kind of stochastic probabilistic calculations made by the rational agents as modelled by modern social sciences. And often we “simply do not know.”

Science according to Keynes should help us penetrate to “the true process of causation lying behind current events” and disclose “the causal forces behind the apparent facts.” Models can never be more than a starting point in that endeavour. He further argued that it was inadmissible to project history on to the future. Consequently, we cannot presuppose that what has worked before, will continue to do so in the future. That statistical models can get hold of correlations between different variables is not enough. If they cannot get at the causal structure that generated the data, they are not really ‘identified.’

How strange that economists and other social scientists, as a rule, do not even touch upon these aspects of scientific methodology that seems to be so fundamental and important for anyone trying to understand how we learn and orient ourselves in an uncertain world. An educated guess on why this is a fact would be that Keynes’ concepts are not possible to squeeze into a single calculable numerical probability. In the quest for quantities one puts a blind eye to qualities and looks the other way — but Keynes ideas keep creeping out from under the statistics carpet.

The validity of the inferential models we as scientists use ultimately depends on the assumptions we make about the entities to which we apply them. Applying the traditional calculus of probability presupposes far-reaching ontological presuppositions. If we are prepared to assume that societies and economies are like urns filled with coloured balls in fixed proportions, then fine. But — really — who could earnestly believe in such an utterly ridiculous analogy?

In a real world full of ‘unknown unknowns’ and genuine non-ergodic uncertainty, urns are of little avail.

Human decisions affecting the future, whether personal or political or economic, cannot depend on strict mathematical expectation, since the basis for making such calculations does not exist; and that it is our innate urge to activity which makes the wheels go round, our rational selves choosing between the alternatives as best we are able, calculating where we can, but often falling back for our motive on whim or sentiment or chance.

J M Keynes

  1. February 27, 2019 at 8:39 am

    Criticize mainstream customs in formulating human behavior in uncertain environment is one thing. To try to create methods and framework by which to analyse economic processes is another. Lars Should concentrates in arguing how mainstream formulation is wrong in a fundamentally uncertain world where the probability calculus has no or little meaning. He is right in this regard but forgetting more important tasks he should consider.

    To study how human behavior is structured must be more important than criticizing mainstream formulations. How can we formulate our (intentional and purposeful) behavior in an uncertain world? If we cannot present a theory which incorporates our behavior in an uncertain world, criticism loses its power, because what we criticize may be the best solution even if it has many apparent defects.

    Although I cannot claim it is the ideal solution, I have contemplated on this question. My provisional conclusion was that our behavior depends much on the repetitive structure of all kind of events. We observe a sign of particular situation and react to it by a particular reaction. This behavior is called in variety of names: routine behavior, patterned behavior, If-Then rule, C-D transformation, etc. These types of actions are not based on probability measurement and inference (like maximal expected utility), but easily fall in unexpected situation.
    See my draft paper
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301766363_Microfoundations_of_Evolutionary_Economics?

    In a practical construction of economic theories, we should not destruct the basic mechanisms on which our behavior depends. Equilibrium violates this necessary condition.

  2. Rob Reno
    February 28, 2019 at 2:19 am

    Arrow’s prize-partner John Hicks (another high theorist) dismissed the idea of economics as a science: ‘Our science colleagues find permanent truths; economists, who deal with the daily actions of men and the consequences of thesArrow’se, can rarely hope to find the same permanency.’ In his 1974 Nobel Lecture, Friedrich von Hayek denied that economics could meet the standards of science. (The Nobel Factor: The Prize in Economics, Social Democracy, and the Market Turn by Avner OffTheer, Gabriel Söderberg Avner Offer, Gabriel Söderberg, http://a.co/5eA4hvK)

    [Hayek’s] criterion of scientific validity was Popper’s falsification. The Nobel Prize for economic science did not live up to it, and risked a descent into ‘scientism’, the mere pretence of scientific certainty. Hayek did not advocate better science—economics could never be a science, because its core variables could not be observed. It was better to be vaguely right than precisely wrong, he stated (although in different words), a view often attributed to his rival Keynes. Economics was indeterminate, like biology or gardening. True knowledge was innate, and could not be confirmed scientifically by observation. (The Nobel Factor: The Prize in Economics, Social Democracy, and the Market Turn by Avner Offer, Gabriel Söderberg, http://a.co/ctwQy1t)

    Gunnar Myrdal (NPW, 1974) … [r]ather like Hayek (his ideological opponent) he stated that economics could not be a science, since its data were human attitudes and behaviour, whose causes are evolving and inaccessible. Economics could never identify constants or what in former times were called ‘laws of nature’. Economists were as unlike astronomers as was possible. The other reason to distrust economics (on which Myrdal had written with authority some decades before) was that it was shot through with values, and could not avoid taking a view about proper ends. ‘[Economists] keep silent about the role of values in research. They regularly assume that there is a solid body of theories and facts, established without implying value premises, from which policy conclusions can then also be drawn.’ (The Nobel Factor: The Prize in Economics, Social Democracy, and the Market Turn by Avner Offer, Gabriel Söderberg, http://a.co/0am7mNc)

    Hayek had it right: ‘to entrust to science … more than scientific method can achieve may have deplorable effects’. Joseph Schumpeter (an NPW-level economist born too soon), wrote, Unsatisfactory [empirical] performance has always been and still is accompanied [in economics] by unjustified claims, and especially by irresponsible applications to practical problems that were and are beyond the powers of the contemporaneous analytic apparatus. (The Nobel Factor: The Prize in Economics, Social Democracy, and the Market Turn by Avner Offer, Gabriel Söderberg, http://a.co/3pEEKq4)

    Academic evidence might be inconclusive, but reality is not. As Gunnar Myrdal said, ‘facts kick’. Bad theory makes bad policy, and when reality does not comply, it often has to be coerced. Bad theory is itself a means of coercion: In the Soviet Union, it provided justification for the gulag; in the ‘free market’ United States, for its own massive gulag, a prison system larger in proportion than in any other country, fed by a labour market with frayed safety nets, and managed for profit. The Nobel Prize in economics (as we shall see) was an afterthought, a whimsy almost, of a modern central bank. Monetary doctrine between the wars, which gave rise to modern central banking, also gave rise to depression, unemployment, inequality, and ultimately to a second world war. Good economic theory (in the same years), went some way to fix the harm. (The Nobel Factor: The Prize in Economics, Social Democracy, and the Market Turn by Avner Offer, Gabriel Söderberg, http://a.co/coIgsd8)

    Yishinori gas it backwards. Lar’s criticism grows stronger day by day because it is true. Yoshinori’s claim that current empirically proven false economic theory is “”good enough” grows weaker day by day. The younger generation isn’t going to be suckered into buying this theory first claptrap while their lives are ruined by such lame excuses for business as usual. One is rooted in reality and can be lived (facts kick) while the other is the self-deluded scientism that reveals disdain for human values (quality) and in the end cannot be lived with costing lives, jobs, and perhaps even world peace as nation states increasing engage in economic competition at the expense of cooperation.

    • Rob Reno
      February 28, 2019 at 2:22 am

      Lar’s is in good company. And the younger generation will kick over this dysfunctional theory first scientism.

  3. Rob Reno
    February 28, 2019 at 12:01 pm

    In the quest for quantities one puts a blind eye to qualities and looks the other way — but Keynes ideas keep creeping out from under the statistics carpet.

    I have downloaded A Treatise on Probability from Kindle and will read it. He indeed is, from what I have learned from your posts, a giant among intellectual insight. What are the core works of Keynes that you feel are important to read?

    • February 28, 2019 at 5:10 pm

      Rob, yes ‘economics as it is’ is not a science, but it is important to realise that scientific method has evolved, and the 18th century probabilistic method pioneered by David Hume and taken for granted by scientists who want to do science and not philosophy of science is out of date, and has been roughly since the discovery of electric circuits in 1800 and the invention of telegraphy and Boolean algebra shortly after. Control of Newtonian cosmic forces has largely given way to control of human forces by information processing and C S Peirce’s retroduction has been added to mathematical reduction, logical deduction and statistical induction in the system of scientific logic. The question should be, not IS economics a science, but SHOULD it be? and if so, should it be a mechanical or an information science? What is “mechanical” about a digital computer storing and processing terabytes of information: these days in a “machine” one can hold in one’s hand?

      I’ve written about this often before. May I suggest you study

      https://rwer.wordpress.com/2019/02/18/the-quest-for-certainty-a-new-substitute-for-religion/#comments

      https://rwer.wordpress.com/2019/02/14/the-vain-search-for-the-holy-grail-of-science/#comments

      So yes, Yoshinori has got it backwards. Being philosophy, Keynes’ Treatise is not conclusive but it is certainly suggestive: it is not stuck in the conventional box. The same too of his General Theory. The concept of ‘heuristic’ has been brought into the discussion recently and one perhaps gets most out of his work if one doesn’t try so much to grasp what he is saying as to imagine what he was thinking of in the context of the time. The other book of his I find very revealing is Essays in Biography.

      • Rob Reno
        March 1, 2019 at 12:40 am

        Good point Dave, history shows ‘economics as it is’ is not a science. I agree, science (like everything else from life, to culture, to philosophy, and religion) evolves. The question that most interests me as I pursue a deeper understanding of economics is to what degree can science shed light on the field of economics and what are the limitations of science in general and specifically as it relates to economics. I think you make a good point regarding information science, and, I would add, so does systems biology and complexity theory perhaps. But Lars’ cautionary tales apply to these fields as well I think. I am sympathetic to John Pardike’s comment:

        Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. Heuristics are valuable maps, approximations, but ideologues cause atrocity by forcing reality to follow ideology instead of the other way around.

        Thanks for the reference on Keynes. Regarding the evolution of the scientific method:

        [T]he real world has a history, and to state the truth about it we must take account of that history. Scientific method – the logic of science – has occupied the attention of some of the greatest scientific and philosophical thinkers. If we dismiss what engaged their attention, then we had better be sure that we know why it engaged their attention. They were, no doubt, subject to prevailing cultural influences and attitudes of which they may have been unaware. But so are we, and if we can, with the help of history, exercise a degree of self-reflection, we may wish to circumscribe the influences which try to prevail over our thinking. (Scientific Method: An Historical and Philosophical Introduction by Barry Gower)

      • Robert Locke
        March 1, 2019 at 9:16 am

        “Control of Newtonian cosmic forces has largely given way to control of human forces by information processing and C S Peirce’s retroduction has been added to mathematical reduction, logical deduction and statistical induction in the system of scientific logic. The question should be, not IS economics a science, but SHOULD it be? and if so, should it be a mechanical or an information science?”

        This sounds suspiciously like double-talk, Dave. As an historian, I have checked regularly in the “Real World,” including the pages of this journal about the “scientific” status of “economics” and although it might be ardently desired by you no clarion calls of victory have been found.

      • March 1, 2019 at 10:38 am

        Robert, as a scientist I’m looking at the real scientific world and you, as a historian, are looking at what other people say (so not what they don’t say) about that real world. You won’t find much in your papers about information science, either, because (as Chesterton said of Catholicism) it is not that it has been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and not tried. Not that it is any more difficult than Newtonian science, it is just that to English speakers it looks like Greek.

      • Rob Reno
        March 1, 2019 at 11:19 am

        Robert, as a scientist I’m looking at the real scientific world and you, as a historian, are looking at what other people say (so not what they don’t say) about that real world.

        Dave, you are better than this. How arrogant. You presume a superior insight which frankly is pure bullshit. Scientific thinking is not vouchsafed to some privileged few. Scientific living and thinking is not some mysterious cult open only to the properly initiated.

        Rather than engage in such childish ad hominem speak planly. Either you think economics is a science (you have already acknowledged it is not science as it is) or you don’t. Or do you think you gave THE TRUTH of how economics can become a science?

        I suspect the latter.

      • March 1, 2019 at 8:34 pm

        I’m sad you are taking that line, Rob. Robert was at cross purposes anyway, accusing me of double talk and “ardently desiring” scientific status for economics when that and bullshit was not my purpose at all: it was that IF economics is to become a science, should it be a mechanical or an information science? That’s a question, not an assertion. I respect Robert as a historian, so I expect him to respect me as a scientist. As far as I am concerned, this exchange wasn’t arrogant on either side, it was banter between old friends.

        I don’t agree with your own view of science. Mine is not that science is “vouchsafed” to some privileged few, but that few scientists are interested in and therefore look at what science is (as against their prescribed roles and status as scientists). As it happens I am one of the few, and have been taking an active interest in philosophy of science for over well over sixty years. If I understand the breadth of scientific thinking better than Robert it is because as a scientist I have been immersed in it and as a historian he has not.

        Should economics become a science? Personally, I think it is more on a par with engineering, which uses the findings of science. At the moment it is still using the mathematics of thermodynamic mechanical engineering. In a communications circuit model linking people, all the convolutions of the present money circulation theories drop away as they did from earth-centred cosmic orbits when Copernicus redefined them as solar orbits. Okay, who am I to propose such a thing? But who was Copernicus before he did so and was found to be right?

      • Robert Locke
        March 1, 2019 at 9:03 pm

        I think I can follow the logic of your argument, Dave, if I do not understand the information science you propose as the science that would develop in economics if one developed. The engineering analogy is interesting: I encountered a mathematics professor in a train compartment traveling in France, who told me his regular job at the University of Alabama was to teach mathematics to engineering students. He added that engineers did not understand mathematics. What is an historian to think, with this kind of feedback.

  4. John Pardike
    February 28, 2019 at 2:23 pm

    Indeed, Einstein, a deterministic deist, did not believe in probabilistic thinking. Probabilistic thinking is a good way to approximate chaos. Jews answer by question and Greeks by dialectic because god and truth are unknowable. Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. Heuristics are valuable maps, approximations, but ideologues cause atrocity by forcing reality to follow ideology instead of the other way around

    • Rob Reno
      March 1, 2019 at 12:32 am

      Well said. Succinct, true, and quotable! Thanks John.

    • March 1, 2019 at 5:28 pm

      John, thanks from me too for your comment. Your linking heuristics and maps came for me at an opportune time, but when I mentioned it above, you were out of sight below the reply panel. My own model of the economy is a map which can interpreted in different ways, though not inconsistently: a telephone channel is also (in its own small way) an electrical power circuit; hence the issue as to whether a circuit diagram mapping the channels of the economy represents a power distribution or a communications system or both, and whichever, how? (One has to use imagination to visualise the motions).

      I agree with Rob that systems biology and complexity theory are relevant to economics, in that neurological subsystems form links in systems of communication, and complex number at the dimensional level applies both to cybernetic control and its explanation not only of “invisible hands” but the onset of chaos with false or too much positive feedback. Where Jews question and Greeks use dialectic, Catholics see paradox and mathematicians analogy in algorithmic forms repeatedly using shift processes which change the meaning of symbols.

      Please see these comments, then, as heuristic rather than explanatory. As Kenner says in ‘Paradox in Chesterton’, “A man conscious of ultimate things presents difficulties in the peculiar compactness of his thinking and writing: so much so that when the elements of his vision are once grasped, one may use almost any stray citation to illustrate any part of it”. Evolution from simple (zero dimension) containment to complex (two dimensional) control applied as much at the time of the Big Bang as it does now, adding a new digit to a quadratic (as against decimal) algorithmic number every time complete control creates a new containment and a new level of control. For instance, from cells evolved plants evolved animals evolved humans, able to start again evolving simple, homeostatic and cybernetic systems, including economies and – from them – monetary control systems degenerating into chrematism and chaos.

      As Larry Motuz wrote on New Year’s Day, “… ah, what the heck, is anybody actually listening?

  5. Frank Salter
    March 1, 2019 at 7:17 am

    Again the elephant in the room is being ignored. Curve fitting is a valid process for producing concrete descriptions of single data sets. Arbitrary equations are acceptable descriptors.

    Theoretical relationships must be developed from first principles. These relationships will provide totally different descriptions and are distinguished by being in accord with the quality calculus.

    • March 1, 2019 at 5:30 pm

      This is what I refer to as mathematical reduction, i.e. simplification.

      • Frank Salter
        March 2, 2019 at 7:02 am

        There are two different processes in economics. One is the human aspect, only partly predictable and subject human error. The other is the physical reality, describable by mathematics.

        I am unsure of what you mean simplification. Compared to the subject of this blog which conflates curve-fitted concrete and theoretical relationships, I would think it quite the opposite.

  6. Rob Reno
    March 1, 2019 at 12:14 pm

    Scientific Truth & Scientific Living

    The truths of science are products gained at the conclusion of a process. The process varies from one science and method to another, but there are family resemblances. Disciplined, critical effort is applied to establish facts with as much care as circumstances require and permit; a search for causes expands understanding; empirical research can correct errors in previous research; and the knowledge gained is placed in the overarching framework of cosmic, biological, personal, and historical evolution. When scientists make claims that go significantly beyond what their research has established, it is understandable that disputes arise; but these should not be allowed to distort the overall picture. There are laws and constants in nature: Gravity holds things together as galaxies whirl in their orbits. Pattern may be discerned. We can establish truths that express these laws and constants because the universe is dependable. The facts of the present are explained by causes from the past, and present facts carry implications for the future. In sum, science discloses the trustworthiness of nature’s fidelity to law. It is commonly said that scientific facts are theory-laden; and this is true in the sense that the meaning of a fact in science relies on a wider context of scientific theory. When the theory changes, the meaning of the fact will change. But it would be a mistake to regard all of science as uncertain and up for grabs. The testimony of philosopher of science Olaf Pedersen restores perspective by reminding us of the stability of scientific truth. He speaks not of theories but of a certain type of statement expressing what he calls primary relations. For example, “The boiling point of alcohol is 78° Celsius at a pressure of one atmosphere, which affirms a relationship between three classes of phenomena—the state of alcohol as a liquid or vapour, its temperature, and the pressure to which it is subjected. (Living in Truth, Beauty, and Goodness: Values and Virtues” by Jeffrey Wattles, Stephen G. Post, http://a.co/cTveu9j)

    The stability of physical fact contrasts with the more varied character of facts established through the social sciences. Research on the unconscious indicates depths in the human being beyond what we can directly observe. Nevertheless, human beings show observable regularities that make social science possible, partly because we are largely material creatures. To be sure, the social sciences also use a variety of methods involving understanding and interpretation of meaning, (Living in Truth, Beauty, and Goodness: Values and Virtues” by Jeffrey Wattles, Stephen G. Post, http://a.co/idwSbo7)

    Whether we are beginners or experts in science, growth in scientific living helps us flourish as largely material creatures in a largely material environment. Scientific living is the virtue or excellence of being responsible to fact. (http://a.co/hdepG7o)

    To love intelligently, to communicate mercifully, to apply justice fairly, we need to understand facts. Scientific living provides a sturdy foundation for living the truth and prepares us to recognize higher meanings and values. Truth, beauty, and goodness all reach into the material realm; so our thinking, feeling, and doing are all enhanced by gaining a good grasp of material fact. Truth has a spiritual core and a scientific periphery, joined by a philosophical bridge.

    • March 1, 2019 at 5:56 pm

      Unfortunately we are discussing politicised economic -, not Truth, Beauty and Goodness – and the issue is whether they are genuinely scientific. Not scientific enough to anticipate oceans full of plastic waste as a result of Mrs Thatcher’s policy of “polluter pays”. Not scientific enough to see the environmental folly in withdrawing financial support for solar energy to support fracking of fossil fuels. Not scientific enough for parliamentarians to attend a debate on our having 12 years left to save ourselves from thermal runaway after the parliamentary planners had put off debate of the issue for another eight years. (That’s today’s news here).

      The problem is not so much the limits of probabilistic reasoning as “lies, damn lies, and statistics”, psychologically driven by three hundred years of lying about the nature of money.

      • Rob Reno
        March 1, 2019 at 7:26 pm

        I disagree. Frankly, I cannot understand what you mean. Cynicism? I think Lars is seeking truth — reality. I think Asad is seeking truth and an understanding that accords with reality. Yes, this is as Ken says, in a not insignificant way, condition by culture. But there is something about the human mind’s ability to recognize fact that transcends culture. Mathematics is part of that mind experience. When a Japanese physicist theorized the existence of a meson (my memory could be getting the name wrong here) regardless of culture physicists around the world shared an experience of interesubjective experimental confirmation. Thereby science transcended culture to some degree I think.

        Man is not merely a machine; thinking, reflecting, mind is not merely an algorithm. Science, like mathematics, in my view, is a tool for measuring and exploring the material world.

        If the problem is lies than the solution is more light — factfullness, truth. What is killing America is toxic religious fundamentalism that refuses to recognize fact or any semblance of truth. For the predators like Trump it pure greed and lust for power.

        So Dave, I think we are talking about truth (factfullness in the material world), beauty, and goodness when we lament the absence of them.

      • March 2, 2019 at 11:14 am

        Rob, again I regret your forcing me to defend my own position. Try to allow for your not understanding making you feel inferior, so that, defensively, you judge my understanding false and my sharing it arrogant. Remember that if you look hard and long enough, you may see the young lady in Asad’s old lady’s face.

        Lars and I are BOTH ‘Critical Realists’, putting ‘ontology’ before ‘epistemology’, i.e. seeking to understand what what things are before trying to justify measurements of fact with them. ‘Truth’ for me is not primarily “factfulness in the material world”, it is a relationship BETWEEN language and the material world, and any lack of it is in the language, which here you seem to be taking for granted. Copernicus changed the language, not the reality.

        Asad and I, using only slightly different language, are BOTH committed to not just talking about the good life but trying to facilitate it by redesigning economic practice, to make it compatible with the ethic of the brotherhood of man. If science is a tool (not always perfect) for seeing the truth, an economy is a tool (not always perfect) for living the good life.

        I agree with you: “Man is not merely a machine; thinking, reflecting, mind is not merely an algorithm”. Nor is a computer. It also is not merely host to an indefinite number of different linguistic programs but it too has error-correcting logic built in which (like conscience) people have to learn to be aware of, then learn how to use. That was the whole point of Shannon’s information science; but of course (am I allowed to be cynical?) politicians and economists don’t make errors, so there was no point in that. It provided a beautiful solution, nevertheless, to the problems of error and comprehension (i.e. decoding), which extends even to the detection of lies.

        Ken and I tend to disagree because, taking for granted THAT brains and computers work, he is not interested in HOW they work. He therefore sees only the diversity of their behaviour and not what I see: the scientific invariants of indirect action through language; brains as well as computers having the indexed database structure (first recognised, so far as I can tell, by G K Chesterton); both having electric circuit switching logic like that discovered by Shannon; and also his primitive error-detection logic built into instincts and computer operating systems. That was my field in then still experimental science; Ken was an anthropologist who, as I understand it, reduces observations to statements hopefully applicable in the social sciences. He doubts there is a fundamental level of science which could have gone wrong; this despite the evidence of Copernicus and Einstein and the arguments of Kant.

  7. March 1, 2019 at 6:55 pm

    Typo: “politicised economics – …”. Sorry.

    PS. on “12 years” from Michael Lucas on sickening inequality:

    It may be helpful to remember another gem of ancient Chinese wisdom: “Not even a god can help those who forfeit opportunity.”

  8. Yoshinori Shiozawa
    March 2, 2019 at 5:29 am

    Bob Reno February 28, 2019 at 2:19 am >>
    Yoshinori’s claim that current empirically proven false economic theory is “good enough” grows weaker day by day.

    I never stated that the present-day mainstream “economic theory is ‘good enough’.” In the draft I cited in my reply at the top of this page (The Microfoudantions of Evolutionary Economics), the only place “good enough” appears is in page 8 (of the draft version of April 2016). If I cite the relevant part, it reads:

    If approximation is good enough, this may approximate the utility value u(x1a, x2a, … , xNa) to the maximum utility value u(x1*, x2*, … , xN*), but we cannot say that the solution (x1a, x2a, … , xNa) is close to (x1*, x2*, … , xN*). [I have omitted “a” before “approximte”, because it is a simple typo.]

    This sentence appears in a critical explanation of the utility maximization theory.

    If Bob Reno is referring some other places, he must be misunderstanding the meaning. My fundamental stance is against the mainstream (neoclassical) economics. My objection to the mainstream economics has two central pillars:

    (1) Human economic choice is not based on maximization either be it utility or profit.

    (2) Equilibrium framework must be rejected.

    Firms aim to maximize its profit, but in a totally different way than the neoclassical economic assumes. It is a very complicated process and depends much on the dynamic capability of the firm. In the sense that I firmly sustain above two pillars, I am much more radical than many heterodox economists.

    Bob Reno’s careless statement that I have claimed that “economic theory is ‘good enough'” reveals that he has no capability to read the methodological arguments in economics and distinguish mainstream and heterodox economics. Either everything theoretical seems mainstream to him, either or he does not even know there are severe theoretical struggles inside the economics.

    • Yoshinori Shiozawa
      March 2, 2019 at 12:10 pm

      Sorry, all. I must have typed “Rob Reno” instead of “Bob Reno.”

    • March 3, 2019 at 9:17 am

      Yoshonori, re-reading and agreeing your “two central pillars” in light of a distinction I have made below between homeostatic (physical) and cybernetic (information based) control, it may be of interest to consider

      (1) that a homeostatic thermostat seeks to stabilise a chosen – not maximum – temperature, and

      (2) AIMS for an equilibrium at the chosen temperature and ACHIEVES it automatically and determinately by the physical adjustment mechanism expanding or contracting directly with changes of temperature.

      By contrast, a ship is not steered directly by changes in the position of the compass. The compass change has to be interpreted and the resultant encoded information communicated to a person or mechanism that translates the information into mechanical movement.

      The information science method can go wrong (though in fact the point of the science was to help prevent that happening), but it can also adapt to changes in parameters other than the fundamental one: in the example of navigation, not only to direction but to drift out of position or by deliberately changing course or position to avoid approaching danger.

      The homeostat is a product of 18th century physical science, autopilots a product of 20th century information science. Neo-classical equilibrium theory is consistent with interpreting the economy as a homeostat. My belief is that it is better likened to a fleet of vessels all using the same navigation method, if more or less completely. The fact that Keynes in 1936 took account of unemployment as well as supply and demand is why as a sometime control engineer I have always seen him anticipating the post-war cybernetics of 1948.

    • Yoshinori Shiozawa
      March 3, 2019 at 2:37 pm

      Thank you, Dave, for your intervention.

      Your navigation example is stimulating and instructive. I believe it is necessary to reject all equilibrium framework but it does not imply that normal state of economy is rather stationary. It is stationary with fluctuations. Sea surface is just such an example. Sea level is always almost stationary but there are always waves. Economic agents (e.g. managers of firms) are navigating their ships on the sea when it is calm or turbulent.

      For the stationary state with fluctuation, see my paper 30 years ago:
      The Primacy of Stationarity: A Case against General Equilibrium Theory
      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233943723_The_Primacy_of_Stationarity_A_Case_against_General_Equilibrium_Theory

      Homeostatis is a good parable for economy, but I am thinking that economy is not a single homeostatic system. In this sense, neoclassical economics is too simplistic. Like a living body, economy is a complex structure composed of extremely large number of homeostatic cycles structured in many layers.

      Parable of a fleet of vessels is also very interesting. Yes, we must deem economy as a loosely connected system composed of many number of similar (but not identical) agents. Do you know experiments of synchronization of metronomes? Please look at this page:

      32 metronomes which were randomly moving at the start come to be synchronized within a lapse of two minutes. I do not explain the mechanism behind this. Please guess what is happening.

      This kind of synchronization is observed in a wide variety of phenomema, either it is physical or biological. It is not strange that this kind of synchronization causes booms and its collapses in economy.

      • Yoshinori Shiozawa
        March 7, 2019 at 4:33 am

        Synchronization is the very important universal mechanism that is not considered and examined in economics.

    • Yoshinori Shiozawa
      March 4, 2019 at 11:35 pm

      One word for information and cybernetic controls. This is important for firms or other economic agents. But the economy itself which is a system composed of many economic agents has no objective to pursue. Macroeconomists often assumes that they are treating it as if it is a control system. It is doubtful if a cybernetic model applies to macroeconomic control. Human body is a huge complex system of homeostatic cycles but there is no single objective function. If I dare say, the objective of economic policies is to keep the economy healthy.

      • March 7, 2019 at 10:09 pm

        I don’t agree with you, Yoshinori. The fact that economics has a name is indicative of it having a generic purpose: household management as seen behaviourally, in your terms keeping human families as against monetary profits healthy. The point to be understood about navigation is that one can sub-divide the journey and the same navigation method applies to the sub-division, even though the aim has changed. The aims of humans differ with their sex and maturity, such that in their child-rearing years dads and mums typically (though not of course universally) aim to provide and distribute what their children need, while the old folk help with development of physical capital and understanding. Where orthodox macroeconomic thinkers go wrong is in mistaking a method of self-control applicable to any family for government (or financial) control of all. Control over power is not control over function, but like loss of power leaving a ship drifting at sea, it can prevent the functioning of aims, including error correction and avoidance.

      • Yoshinori Shiozawa
        March 8, 2019 at 4:40 pm

        Dave,
        perhaps you have not learned the lesson from the failure of planned economy. You may be misunderstanding the complexity of the economy.

      • March 9, 2019 at 10:14 am

        First, apologies, Yoshinori, for not having noticed your comment of 3rd March. Had I done so I would have answered sommewhat differently, suggesting the word for generic purpose was like an algebraic symbol for a variable, so ships aim to move towards a destination even if these ports vary. This is not about homeostasis, though, it is about human choice, and being able to make choices because true north is detectable and latitude and longitude pin-point position. It is not about complexity in the Santa Fe arithmetical interpretation of it (just re-naming Shannon’s information capacity), it is about complex number permitting infinite variation in four completely different geometric quadrants or dynamic time-scales. Perhaps it is you who misunderstood my ‘complexity’?

        Your really interesting metronome suggests that if many people find a port worth travelling to, others will decide to see why. In talk radio one can see a similar effect when tuning in to a station: one can still pick up a signal (sufficient perhaps to trigger a metronomic switch) even before one is fully tuned in.
        I’ve been singing in choirs for about sixtyfive years, and it is fascinating how the members not only learn to listen to each other so they sing in tune, but also to hold differing harmonies. To visualise this happening in economics, I see busy people free to go in whatever direction they like, but muddy paths cutting grassy corners on the way to the bank.

      • Yoshinori Shiozawa
        March 9, 2019 at 11:37 am

        It is not the first time that I post about metronomes which synchronize. We cannot write down the system of mechanical differential equations. Even if we can, the interaction is too complicated. But, Professor Kuramoto has found a simple equation that can essentially show how the synchronization occurs. It is really a result of physicist intuition.

      • March 9, 2019 at 11:12 pm

        Apologies again, Yoshinori, this time for not delighting in your Youtube: I didn’t at first see how to play it! Quite hypnotically fascinating! I can visualise how it happens, and how it is relevant to booms and busts, and both more generally and more specifically to the phenomenon of fashion. I think I could even write an algorithm (though not a system of differential equations) to simulate it mathematically! It’s mechanism, though, is homeostatic rather than cybernetic. It is a direct interaction of opposing forces.

        Let me go back also to your saying my navigation example “does not imply that normal state of economy is rather stationary. It is stationary with fluctuations. Sea surface is just such an example. Sea level is always almost stationary but there are always waves”. I’ve often wanted a reason to use the word ‘exogenous. Surely shocks due to the state of the sea are exogenous to an economy comprising a fleet of vessels using the same navigation method but none of them stationary and all heading in different directions? In such a dynamic context perhaps ‘stable’ applied to their course rather than their immediate circumstances would be a more appropriate word than ‘stationary’?

        Thanks anyway for coming back on this. I’ve enjoyed the opportunity you have created for real discussion, which sadly is a lot rarer here than disagreement due to cross-purposes.

      • Yoshinori Shiozawa
        March 10, 2019 at 3:39 am

        Dave,

        I do not care much about the distinction between “stationary” and “stable”. But, most often stable system is understood that it converges to an equilibrium when it was out of the equilibrium. “Stationary state” in my definition has no relevance with equilibrium. In my “Primacy of stationarity” paper, I want to use it in a very wide sense as I have given in it.

        Metronomes which synchronize are purely physical “synchronization” and you are right to say that they are not cybernetic. However, synchronization occurs in much different situation. An example is fireflies. Some species of fireflies synchronize their light.

        See


        See the scene between 1:30 to 2:30


        See in full screen mode (after 40 second among 3 minutes)

        In the first movie (firefly in Japan) we see fireflies are loosely syncronized, but in the second movie (firefly in Malaysa) we see they are exactly synchronizing.

        In this case, it is rather evident that some information exchange is made among fireflies. We may say this synchronization is rather cybernetic than homeostatic.

      • Yoshinori Shiozawa
        March 12, 2019 at 2:55 am

        I am sorry. I made a mistake. The second movie above was taken in Papua New Guinea as it is written in the super script.

      • Yoshinori Shiozawa
        March 12, 2019 at 1:07 pm

        Dear Dave Taylor,

        have you seen my post above? The post appears very late and we often miss the relevant posts.

  9. Robert Locke
    March 2, 2019 at 9:35 am

    ‘I respect Robert as a historian,’ Do you? Thirty years ago, in Management and Higher Education Since 1940, Chapter 1, The New Paradigm,” (Cambridge University Press, 1989) I described the influences that went into the development of modern management sciences. I wrote, among other things

    “How mathematics and symbolic logic were being tied through physics to management science. Because Boolean algebra, which is based on a binary radix, turned out to be isomorphic with electrical circuits, it could be used to design the most efficient forms of electrical circuitry in computers. … It was Claude E. Shannon who, in a 1938 research paper , observed the analogy ‘between the truth values of Boolean propositions and the states of switches and relays in an electrical circuit.’ Shannon showed that ‘switching algebra’ is a concrete example of the abstract binary Boolean algebra and hence is isomorphic to the truth-table algebra of propositions. Without symbolic logic the development of the computer would have been impossible. Without the computer scientific management would have been deprived of a powerful aid. No more impressive example can be given, therefore, of the impact of modern mathematics on management than that of its influence on symbolic logic.” (pp. 9-10)

    Isn’t that the theme you have been following in your work, Dave? Where is the footnote acknowledging that the US historian Robert Locke, over thirty years ago, poinpointed its importance for the new paradigm in management science.

    • March 2, 2019 at 12:52 pm

      I haven’t – unfortunately it seems – read this book in which you express your views of what you see as “the New Paradigm”. I bought your book on “Confronting Managerialism”, in which this background understanding is not evident. I’ve “ticked” where on p.102 you say “It turns out at the end of the twentieth century that the issue for higher education is not science versus the humanities but science/humanities versus money/managerialism”. You’ve filled in a lot of detail on US and German management which chimes well with my own experience as a Brit with Distributist interest in Mondragon, and I can go along with your Guideline for Reform being (cursorily) workers on firm’s boards helping restrain CEO and shareholder interests. However, I don’t have to agree with you to respect you. I remember discussing Operations Research here with you and understanding the mathematics but pointing out Patrick Rivett’s unexpected finding that a successful mine rescue was effectively managed by the telephone operator: the only person able to communicate with everyone. Our database experiment used a “computer assisted management” approach, revealing problems so management could help solve them, though in practice this degenerated into managers blaming workers. I can greatly admire the understanding and lucidly of what you say in the passage above, which needs saying because it is fundamental and so few people are aware of it, but what I see you saying is that the impact of this on management has been to reinforce the “command and control” concept of management: the very Old Paradigm we had been fighting in our experiment.

      In short, this is not the theme I have been following, which is the significance of Shannon’s later (1948) invention of error correction logic, where members of a group are assisted in achieving their aims by feedback from the other members of the group. That is the Newer Paradigm, heuristically called Cybernetics but misleadingly, since the exemplar of it is the method of navigation rather than physically homeostatic steering.

      • Robert Locke
        March 2, 2019 at 9:23 pm

        Sorry, to have gotten your work wrong. Please do read that introductory chapter, one day if you have the chance because I clearly lay out a history of the impact of sciences on management thinking. I was a pioneering thinker in history of management education, according to George Bain, former head of the London Business School, and a group of others that vanity prevents me from naming. I overstepped myself, when I ended by challenging THE Command and Control managerialism that Alfred D Chandler, Jr. described in his work, which became the dominant school at the HBS and elsewhere. You know what happens to people who challenge dominant groups and their paradigms? I’ve had the satisfaction to see that my challenge to the visible hand of managerialism has been vindicated by historical processes. If you put me in the command and control camp, you’ve got me wrong.

      • March 2, 2019 at 10:19 pm

        Thanks for that generous apology, Robert. be assured I’ve alwaays understood you are against the “command and control” camp, not for it.

  10. Econoclast
    March 2, 2019 at 7:10 pm

    While reading this exchange, I am sitting here thinking of two people: Thelonious Monk and Rodney King. I’m listening to one of the most beautiful thank-you note/love expressions, Monk’s “Pannonica”; and pondering King’s “can’t we all just get along?”

    As we here debate philosophical, technical and factual matters, let’s not forget that we live in a fact-free society that has lost sight of civility. So we might here, debate as we must, show the world what civil discourse looks like. Instead of the other. And, against that Hobbesian world, isn’t King right, at least among ourselves?

  11. Rob Reno
    March 8, 2019 at 1:37 am

    Human body is a huge complex system of homeostatic cycles but there is no single objective function. (Yoshinori Shiozawa)

    This is a 19th Century view uninformed by 20th & 21st Century understanding of modern biology. My daughters, both students of biology and soon-to-be practicing doctors, researchers, and scientists both had well-informed teachers that daily pointed out the limitations of such 19th Century views. The organism is not some discombobulated and unrelated collection of “homeostatic cycles,” but a highly complex and integrated system with in which the Central Nervous System (CNS) plays a far bigger role than previously acknowledge.

    Persistence in being, flexibility of constitution, adaptability, self-organization, and homeostasis are all aspects of the integrity of the organism that can be dealt with independently of special physiological and ecological exigencies. Adaptabilities that preserve integrity are to be found at any level from the molecular to the behavioral in an organism, and they extend out into its ecosystem. (Robert G. B. Reid. Biological Emergences: Evolution by Natural Experiment (Vienna Series in Theoretical Biology) (Kindle Locations 721-723). Kindle Edition.)

    ~ ~ ~

    Conceptualizing Cells

    We should all take seriously an assessment of biology made by the physicist David Bohm over 30 years ago (and universally ignored):

    “It does seem odd … that just when physics is … moving away from mechanism, biology and psychology are moving closer to it. If the trend continues … scientists will be regarding living and intelligent beings as mechanical, while they suppose that inanimate matter is to complex and subtle to fit into the limited categories of mechanism.” [D. Bohm, “Some Remarks on the Notion of Order,” in C. H. Waddington, ed., Towards a Theoretical Biology: 2 Sketches. (Edinburgh: Edinburgh Press 1969), p. 18-40.]

    The organism is not a machine! Machines are not made of parts that continually turn over and renew; the cell is. A machine is stable because its parts are strongly built and function reliably. The cell is stable for an entirely different reason: It is homeostatic. Perturbed, the cell automatically seeks to reconstitute its inherent pattern. Homeostasis and homeorhesis are basic to all living things, but not machines.

    If not a machine, then what is the cell? (Woese, Carl R., Author. Evolving Biological Organization. In Microbial Phylogeny and Evolution: Concepts and Controversies. (Jan Sapp, ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press; 2005: 100.)

    ~ ~ ~

    While determination fits with naturalistic boundaries of science, the continued insistence on the random nature of genetic change by evolutionists should be surprising for one simple reason: empirical studies of the mutational process have inevitably discovered patterns, environmental influences, and specific biological activities at the roots of novel genetic structures and altered DNA sequences. The perceived need to reject supernatural intervention unfortunately led the pioneers of evolutionary theory to erect an a priori philosophical distinction between the “blind” processes of hereditary variation and all other adaptive functions. But the capacity to change is itself adaptive. Over time, conditions inevitably change, and the organisms that can best acquire novel inherited functions have the greatest potential to survive. The capacity of living organisms to alter their own heredity is undeniable. Our current ideas about evolution have to incorporate this basic fact of life (Shapiro 2011, 2)

    The recognition of organically generated heritable change has its origins in classical cytogenetics, especially in the revolutionary studies of Barbara McClintock on chromosome repair and restructuring during the 1930s through the 1960s…. Molecular analysis provided mechanistic insight into the myriad of distinct ways that living cells can engineer their DNA. Genome sequencing at the end of the 20th Century and the start of this one confirmed major roles played by “natural genetic engineering” in the course of evolutionary change.

    (….) The contemporary concept of life forms as self-modifying beings coincides with the shift in biology from a mechanistic to informatic view of living organisms. One of the great scientific ironies of the last century is the fact that molecular biology, which its pioneers expected to provide a firm chemical and physical basis for understanding life, instead uncovered powerful sensory and communication networks essential to all vital processes, such as metabolism, growth, the cell cycle, cellular differentiation, and multicellular morphogenesis. Whenever these processes have been subjected to the most advanced types of biological analysis, the number of regulatory interactions and control molecules inevitably has grown to rival (and frequently outnumber) the molecules dedicated to executing the basic biochemical transformation form largely mechanical-industrial society to a densely interconnected information-driven society, the life sciences have converged with other disciplines to focus on questions of acquiring, processing, and transmitting information to ensure the correct operation of complex vital systems. (Shapiro 2011, 4)

    The conceptual universe of biology inevitably underwent a radical transformation from the days of classic thinking about evolution and heredity in the 19th and 20th Centuries. That is the way of science. Instead of cell and organismal properties hardwired by an all-determining genome, we now understand how cells regulate the expression, reproduction, transmission, and restructuring of their DNA molecules. (Shapiro, James A. Evolution [A View From the 21st Century]. New Jersey: FT Press Science; 2011; pp. 2-4.

    • Yoshinori Shiozawa
      March 8, 2019 at 10:49 am

      The main part of my contention is that “there is no single objective function.”
      With his wrong and this list of long citations, Rob Reno only revealed that he cannot understand the recent development of biology and life science. .

      • Rob Reno
        March 14, 2019 at 12:28 am

        Teleology is like a mistress to a biologist: he cannot live without her but he’s unwilling to be seen with her in public. ~ J. B. S Haldane (Thanks to a poster here on RWER)

        When philosophical claims are made in the name of so-called science this is scientism; a form of pseudo-science and myth-making. Economics seems to be a field rife with such imperial claims (Sedlacek 2011)

        Making broad philosophical claims that are based on philosophical reductionism in an unformed and dogmatic manner is nothing new. The concept of function like teleology is ever present in the fields of biology. There is a difference between methodological reductionism and philosophical reductionism. The field of biology, like modern physics, has and is undergoing a conceptual revolution. Mechanistic materialism, often an unspoken philosophical position bleeding into discussions like this, are no longer adequate for explaining what science is discovering. Emergentism is the buzzword of used throughout the literature. How much is actually explains is open to debate, but it is undeniable that the concept is indispensable in light of modern discoveries. As Lars notes, “murder is unfortunately the only way to reduce biology to chemistry.” (Syll 2016, Kindle Location 1067)

        Biology faces a similar paradox — the indeterminacy problem — as modern quantum physics. It is impossible to accurately determine simultaneously both the location and velocity a subatomic particle as the measurement of one inevitably involves a change in the other. There exists no “reference frame from which a more precise determination of the location and momentum, the energy and time can be simultaneously achieved.” (Weinert 2004, 69, The Scientist as Philosopher: Philosophical Consequences of Great Scientific Discoveries.) The same paradox confronts the chemical analysis of living protoplasm. We can use methodological reductionism to elucidate the mechanisms of living organisms, but that only takes us so far in understanding the organism as a whole functioning, living, system, hence cytogenetics and systems biology. With the rise of evolutionary developmental biology and new techniques that enable us to observe in real-time the unfolding of the developmental process we are confronted not only with mechanism but emergent properties that are being described as emergent properties that highlight the organisms is more than the sum of its parts.

        I believe there are lessons therein for economics and some (e.g., those authors on this RWER) are speaking to these very issues. When Yoshinori resorts to dogmatism and he is only revealing the intellectual bankruptcy of his blind reductionism and unexamined philosophical beliefs — i.e., scientism.

        Reductionism

        Reduction is a good, logical tool for solving organismal problems by going down to their molecular structure, or to physical properties. But reductionism is a philosophical stance that embraces the belief that physical or chemical explanations are somehow superior to biological ones. Molecular biologists are inclined to reduce the complexity of life to its simplest structures, and there abandon the quest. “Selfish genes” in their “gene pools” are taken to be more important than organisms. To compound the confusion, higher emergent functions such as intelligence and conscious altruism are simplistically defined in such a way as to make them apply to the lower levels. This is reminiscent of William Livant’s (1998) “cure for baldness”: You simply shrink the head to the degree necessary for the remaining hair to cover the entire pate-the brain has to be shrunk as well, of course. This “semantic reductionism” ism” is rife in today’s ultra-Darwinism, a shrunken mindset that regards evolution as no more than the differential reproduction of genes.

        Although reducing wholes to their parts can make them more understandable, fascination with the parts makes it too easy to forget that they are only subunits with no functional independence, whether in or out of the organism. It is their interactions with higher levels of organization that are important. (Robert G. B. Reid. Biological Emergences: Evolution by Natural Experiment, Vienna Series in Theoretical Biology, Kindle Locations 210-217).

  12. Rob Reno
    March 14, 2019 at 12:32 am

    Meant to post:

    Reductionism

    Reduction is a good, logical tool for solving organismal problems by going down to their molecular structure, or to physical properties. But reductionism is a philosophical stance that embraces the belief that physical or chemical explanations are somehow superior to biological ones. Molecular biologists are inclined to reduce the complexity of life to its simplest structures, and there abandon the quest. “Selfish genes” in their “gene pools” are taken to be more important than organisms. To compound the confusion, higher emergent functions such as intelligence and conscious altruism are simplistically defined in such a way as to make them apply to the lower levels. This is reminiscent of William Livant’s (1998) “cure for baldness”: You simply shrink the head to the degree necessary for the remaining hair to cover the entire pate-the brain has to be shrunk as well, of course. This “semantic reductionism” ism” is rife in today’s ultra-Darwinism, a shrunken mindset that regards evolution as no more than the differential reproduction of genes.

    Although reducing wholes to their parts can make them more understandable, fascination with the parts makes it too easy to forget that they are only subunits with no functional independence, whether in or out of the organism. It is their interactions with higher levels of organization that are important. (Robert G. B. Reid. Biological Emergences: Evolution by Natural Experiment, Vienna Series in Theoretical Biology, Kindle Locations 210-217).

    • Rob Reno
      March 14, 2019 at 12:36 am

      To wit:

      If the emergentist-materialist ontology underlying biology (and, as a matter of fact, all the factual sciences) is correct, the bios constitutes a distinct ontic level the entities in which are characterized by emergent properties. The properties of biotic systems are then not (ontologically) reducible to the properties of their components, although we may be able to partially explain and predict them from the properties of their components… The belief that one has reduced a system by exhibiting [for instance] its components, which is indeed nothing but physical and chemical, is insufficient: physics and chemistry do not account for the structure, in particular the organization, of biosystems and their emergent properties (Mahner and Bunge 1997: 197) (Robert, Jason Scott. Embryology, Epigenesis, and Evolution: Taking Development Seriously. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press; 2004; p. 132. (Michael Ruse. Cambridge Studies in Philosophy and Biology.)

      • Craig
        March 14, 2019 at 1:22 am

        Excellent posts Rob. It seems to me that they are a good basis for a kind of panentheism.

        Viz economics and the money system it could also be mistakenly used as a justification of private for profit money creation and finance. In Wisdomics-Gracenomics I advocate for a non-profit publicly administered national banking and central banking system not because finance isn’t an essential aspect of an economic system but because the private profit making version of it violates three economic rules:

        1) it imposes additional costs post retail sale which is (at least presently) the only correct and valid end of the entire ACTUAL economic/productive process
        2) it violates Occam’s Razor, and
        3) it ignore’s Lord Acton’s dictum that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

        A publicly administered not for profit national banking and central banking system violates none of those three, and made a fourth arm’s reach constitutionally separate branch of government and guided by the ethical concept behind the monetary, financial and economic paradigm would be much easier to maintain guidance by that ethical concept than if we tried to herd a couple of hundred rogue fat cat enterprises toward it.

      • Rob Reno
        March 14, 2019 at 1:30 am

        Thanks Craig.

        I am not a pantheist Craig, but if it works for those who ascribe to pantheism I have no objections! I think there is room for everyone ;-)

        You lost me (not following your logic) on how what my post can be “used as justification of private for profit” anything.

      • Rob Reno
        March 14, 2019 at 5:23 am

        Man has trades since the dawn of humankind. https://1drv.ms/u/s!AufofOGUpDNzhP0Sk1UvuPNWzfFjDQ

      • Craig
        March 14, 2019 at 5:02 am

        First just to make it clear it was not meant to be directed toward you, and I also understand you’re not taking it that way.

        Being sensitized to man’s tendency toward orthodoxy I was really just making the observation that an orthodox logic following on from Panentheism as in everything is god could lead one to justify private for profit money creation and its lending because they might consider it an integral and so justifiable part of the economy even though by the three criteria I listed it is not.

      • Rob Reno
        March 14, 2019 at 5:19 am

        Thanks Craig, no problem, didn’t take it personally. There are probably as many was to justify the for profit activity of human economic striving as there are human beings! :-)

        In my view point human beings are evolutionary creatures endowed with cosmic mind and indwelt by a divine spark. From a strictly material evolutionary perspective we share much, much more with our animal cousins than many are comfortable to admit. But I personally feel it is important to recognize our animal origin roots. Why? Because it helps us understand that the old neo-Darwinian story of ruthless completion is outdated. Completion is there, but so is cooperation (even sybiosis. Selfishness is there, but so is reciprocity and altruism.

        Someday humanity will get to the level of Grace you aspire for Craig, of this I have no doubt. I just think the evolutionary process of working out our destiny has a few unexpected twists and turns along the way. The quickest way to this social transformation you envision is individual spiritual trainsformation, for only when individuals have transformed their individual egocentricity and self-interest and truly are motivated to supplant the profit motive with the service motive can social evolution begin to approximate the ideal you seek. For now, in my humble view, Democratic Socialism has been the best approximation humans have come up with to date.

  13. Rob Reno
    March 14, 2019 at 7:03 am

    Competition is there ..

  14. Ken Zimmerman
    March 17, 2019 at 8:34 am

    Regardless of any prowess we may have with technical research tools, the purpose of science is to help us penetrate to — as Keynes put it — “the true process of causation lying behind current events” and disclose “the causal forces behind the apparent facts.” We should look out for causal relations, but econometrics and other mathematical approaches can never be more than a starting point in that endeavor, since econometric (statistical) and other mathematical descriptions are not explanations in terms of mechanisms, powers, capacities or causes. For example, econometrics is and can only be concerned with the measurable aspects of observations. Not measurable means not considered. But there are always other variables – many of vital importance although perhaps unobservable and non-additive (non-linear). At least some of these other variables may be accessible to scientists. But often they are left out of scientific models because they are not measurable. For this reason alone, the causes identified by social scientists, including economists are never more than potential causes.

    Social science and economics have another causation glitch. The models of physics, at least for our part of the galaxy may be formed as stable causal relations between variables. These are called fixed parameter models. The assumption here is that parameter-values estimated in specific spatio-temporal contexts are exportable to totally different contexts. To warrant this assumption it must be convincingly established that the targeted acting causes are stable and invariant so that they maintain their parametric status after the bridging. The pervasive lack of predictive success of social and economic models shows that this hope of finding fixed parameters is and will likely remain only a hope. Contrary to Keynes’ goal then we will never confirm anything more than potential causes for human decisions and actions.

    Added to these difficulties is the reflexivity of human cultures. Humans build their cultures. As part of that, humans create ways to explain their cultures. Eventually, humans look back at their actions and study or examine them. Current versions of that work are the social sciences (including economics), philosophy, mathematics, etc. Donald MacKenzie and Fabian Muniesa’s book “Do Economists Make Markets?: On the Performativity of Economics” is a good place for economists to begin in considering reflexivity for economics.

    • Rob Reno
      March 17, 2019 at 12:24 pm

      Thank you Ken. I learn how to express myself by reading thoughtful people like yourself. I could not agree more and will read and reread your comment to burn it into my mind. Thanks for another reference (if only my mind could absorb more, faster, and better), it sound very interesting. As always, your friend.

      • Ken Zimmerman
        March 17, 2019 at 11:33 pm

        Thank you, Rob.

    • Craig
      March 17, 2019 at 6:15 pm

      “Humans build their cultures. As part of that, humans create ways to explain their cultures.”

      Replace the word “explain” with the word “understand” and that will give us a better and deeper path for the social and more empirical sciences to pursue. That path is the difference between religions of the secular or supernatural variety and spirituality which is really just another word for wisdom. And as grace (or any of the other words the world’s various wisdom traditions hang on it) is the pinnacle concept of wisdom, a study of that concept’s aspects would an excellent primer for any other study. Begin at the beginning.

      • Ken Zimmerman
        March 18, 2019 at 2:13 am

        Craig, I can accept the change you propose if it’s made clear that “understand” refers to something that did not exist prior to Sapiens’ evolution on earth. Sapiens creates its cultures in processes that are complex and often obscured. But it’s Sapiens who does the work. Sapiens also creates the meanings, the explanations of those cultures. Again, Sapiens does the work. Culture did not exist before Sapiens. Wisdom is one tradition that is part of dozens of cultures. Once again Sapiens does the work.

      • Craig
        March 18, 2019 at 6:38 am

        Yes sapiens does the work. I would say however that it was simply that it was because they had not evolved the conscious ability to express culture. And wisdom is the deepest and most elemental aspect of culture.

      • Ken Zimmerman
        March 18, 2019 at 11:56 am

        Craig, the physical evidence from Sapiens’ life of 30,000 years ago indicates it certainly had the ability to create culture and to explain its creation.

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